Re: Probably the best summary yet IMHO


"Mhoram" <SRD@xxxxxxx> wrote in message news:bFplm.1071$FV4.142@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
"Lord Gow333, hired thug of the insurance industry!" <lordgow@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:weGdnUp8GZIrNgnXnZ2dnUVZ_vqdnZ2d@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

"Mhoram" <SRD@xxxxxxx> wrote in message news:%XWkm.804$5c6.720@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
"Lord Gow333, hired thug of the insurance industry!" <lordgow@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:mbOdnSD6xJxi_w7XnZ2dnUVZ_uidnZ2d@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

"Mhoram" <SRD@xxxxxxx> wrote in message news:gmIkm.721$FV4.387@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
"trijcomm" <trijcomm@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:ab8687d9-20e3-4994-81cf-ec71dcb6a309@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
On Aug 24, 12:07 pm, "Mhoram" <S...@xxxxxxx> wrote:
"trijcomm" <trijc...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message

news:4c8ecbfb-c006-4aa0-84dd-2eb9ef3dcfe9@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
On Aug 24, 12:00 am, "Mhoram" <S...@xxxxxxx> wrote:

>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Z_RVl-ph3s

No, this guy is pretty stupid. He says, just like the Obamatons,
"Death panels aren't in the bill." Well, get this: The word "Trinity"
isn't in the Bible, either, but it's there. Case closed. NEXT!
********************************

What is a death panel?

Seriously, nobody can give a concise definition.

I think it's pretty clear that the term comes from the consultations
regarding end-of-life discussions being covered by Medicare. It has
been shown that, following discussions like this, patients have become
"less aggressive" in prolonging their lives -- which, of course, would
"save money and cut costs," something the Demwits have been talking
about in support of their HCR.\
***************************

so there's no panel

pg. 427 (iii) A program for orders for life sustaining
treatment for a States described in this clause is a
program that—
pg/ 428
(IV) is guided by a coalition of stake-
holders includes representatives from emergency
medical services, emergency department physi-
cians or nurses, state long-term care associa-
tion, state medical association, state surveyors,
agency responsible for senior services, state de-
partment of health, state hospital association,
home health association, state bar association,
and state hospice association.

Sounds like a panel to me.

LG
--
Failure is the opportunity to begin again more intelligently. - Henry Ford

Wow, nice cut and paste. First a general statement, then a rebuttal, then a rant on why *no* healthcare reform bill will most likely succeed.

First: I love how politics works today (*sarcasm*). Both parties take statements out-of-context and then scream as loud as they can as if that is a replacement for logic. It seems the American public is so stupid that they only understand chest-thumping and running around clubbing things with a femur bone. There are so many reasons the Republicans could legitimately bring-up to question the logistics of the healthcare plan; but no, they start screaming "death panels!" at the top of their lungs so that the ignorant masses will pay attention.

As I recall the Repubs mentioned "death panels", maybe batted the idea around a little. It seems to be the Dems who are doing all the screaming about it. And I disagree fully about the ignorant masses. If anything this pile of dogcrap has people more involved in govt than they have been in years.



Palin feared that the death panel would kill her son with Down's Syndrome. IMHO that's not 'batting it around'.

Palin =/= "the Republicans"

And yes, people are yelling a screaming a lot but I don't necessarily call that involved. Although, for the wrong reasons IMHO, it will stop this bill from being rushed through which is a good thing. Again though, I feel the partisan rhetoric is only making us dumber in the long run.

I see good, honest citizens of both parties legitimately concerned about their future doing research and resorting to shouting only when they are ignored by their "representatives". I also see liberal thugs, mostly union, shouting purely to drown these citizens out and protect the spineless politicians in their pockets.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I don't know who looks more intellectually bankrupt in this situation...

As for the whole death panel thing, you did provide quotes that mention 'death' and 'panel'. I'll give you that; but that's all I'll give. If you read the pages you quoted in their entirety (pasted below),

I did.

you'll see that the panel is basically a committee to standardize living wills/DNR's, help inform patients and providers of end-of-life resources available (hospice, home healthcare, etc..), and mainly to make sure that patient's are cared-for when in a terminal condition.

Yes... "cared for".



Honestly, I think this is where the misunderstanding is. Hospice care is the best thing to ever happen to western medicine. Ask any family that has ever participated in it. If you have an inoperable brain tumor and are going to die because there is no treatment would you rather:

A) die at home without pain and make peace with all of your loved-ones prior to this
B) die in a hospital on a ventillator because you got so weak at home (or in the hospital) as part of the natural course of your illness

The 'panel' is designed to integrate all areas of healthcare. As it stands today: you can talk with your doctor today and expressly refuse CPR/resuscitation and have a lawyer sign the paperwork. But, if you go in to cardiac arrest in another state (hell, even another city since we have no national healthcare database) or a family member walks in to the ER and yells "save my daddy or I'll sue!" - your ass is getting shocked and a tube is going in your throat. Often this is because these same family members won't take you to see an attorney or talk with your doctor about your wishes or simply because they're not that involved with you until they realize you're dying. Americans refuse to believe that death is inevitable. Nobody escapes it and we can only hope to face it gracefully and on our own terms. And no, don't say by the death panels terms...

To put it in simple terms: if your doctor discusses end-of-life care you and you tell him "I want everything done" then you'll get everything done as this bill reads. The only exception most likely would be in documented brain death in which the patient requires total and complete life support to survive. Most state laws already allow for discontinuation of care in a patient with no documentable brain activity, ideally after the family has time to accept the fact, that only machines are keeping alive. This is no change from current medical practice regardless of insurance.

That's all well and good. It's still not the govt's place to mandate it.

Oh, and that statement has nothing whatsoever to do with Terry Shiavo in case you were going to bring that up.

The only reason I would bring her up is to again mention that that should have been the wake up call to all Americans to have that discussion with their families. If they haven't, *** 'em...


The 'death' part is at the beginning where it simply requires the doctor to *discuss* a patient's wishes if they should be in a terminal condition

Or every five years. Whichever comes first.

and the 'panel' ensures that there are resources available to care for this patient.

Yes... "care for".

This has absolutely nothing to do with denying care, euthenasia, or any other such thing.

Hogwash.



Give a quote from the bill that states care will be denied to continue life if the patient has not expressly said to.

The bill states that the panels will be co-ordinating patient care. I doesn't mention any guidelines whatsoever. I believe we would call this a can of worms. Can you give a quote from the bill that states care will NOT be denied to continue life if the patient has not expressly said to, especially when funds inevitably dry up?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The 'death panel' is a committee that would standardize hospice, living wills, and ensure these options are made available to patients and that all levels of care (doctors, nurses, insurance companies, nursing homes, etc...) are working together.

Oh well thank God for that! Here the Doc was all healing me and ***, and then the Nurse comes in and tries to snuff me with a pillow! Thank goodness Obama showed up or I'd be dead!

Take your little panel... polish it up nice and shiny...



You're basically right. Often patients who are DNR's or on hospice have these things overridden by home care nurses or family members who panic (mostly due to a lack of resources to educate them). And, due to the current legal environment, the wishes of the patient are often ignored to appease anyone threatening litigation. The point is that healthcare is so segmented these days that no one works together in the best interest of the patient. The end of someone's life should be as peaceful as possible - not with family members fighting at bedside, doctors sending people from nursing homes into the hospital for treatments they did not desire, or hospice not being funded. The 'death panel' would develop plans across provider boundaries (insurance companies, nurses, doctors, paramedics, nursing homes, etc...). Or how about I just quote the actual list:

"representatives from emergency medical services, emergency department physicians or nurses, state long-term care association, state medical association, state surveyors, agency responsible for senior services, state department of health, state hospital association, home health association, state bar association, and state hospice association."

So of course this death panel consisting of ambulance drivers, senior service representatives, home health nurses, lawyers, and hospice will be pulling the plug on the elderly every 30 seconds... Give. Me. A. Break.
Even if you believed this was a panel of death look at the members!

Again, no guarantees, and not the govt's place.


Now, what we *really* should be discussing is why *no* healthcare plan will succeed if a few fundamental issues aren't addressed.

Like fixing the damn boat?

1) Tort reform. With all due respect to jslater - medical malpractice attorneys are the scum of the earth. Just look at how many billboards they are posting. Honestly, at this point I'm starting to think even the defense attourney's role is simply to keep you placated throughout the process while the system reams you up the ass. Again though, this comes back to the stupidity of the American people. Medical malpractice requires intent to harm: not mistakes, not even being a bad doctor - it requires the doctor to want to hurt the patient and to do it intentionally. No human is perfect and doctors make mistakes. The problem is a jury of illiterates who see a guy in a wheelchair and want to give him money no matter why it happened. This is also why emergency room bills are so high because docs are ordering millions of tests to cover their ass in-case they are sued.

Agreed.

2) No family docs. IMHO you should *not* be able to walk into a specialist's office without a referral from a PCP. If you have a rash - go to your family doc and reserve the specialists for the 'special' cases. Problem is, we don't fund medical students enough and the money is in specialties once they're done. Too many people are using ER's as family doctors because their docs are too busy and/or they're just lazy and uninformed as to what is a medical emergency. The urgent care centers make things worse because people are not getting routine preventative screening/maintenance in seeing their PCP regularly.

Hmm... okay.

3) Preventative medicine is still being fought by Medicare, Medicaid, and private insurance companies at every turn.

Not in the case of people I know.

This should be a no-brainer: if you can get your patients off of smoking, lose weight, control blood pressure/sugar, and other such things then they will remain healthy and not a drain on the healthcare system. This is even more important if we adopt a national system of healthcare.

We don't want to adopt a national system of healthcare.


I agree but like you said: the boat needs fixed. American healthcare is coming toward a crisis akin to the housing debacle due to: poor planing on how to handle the increasing geriatric population, malpractice idiocy, and unrealistic expectations by the public. Oh, and I'll give you three guesses on how private insurance companies base their compesation to hospitals and the first two better be Medicare. Try separating the already public healthcare system from the privates and you'll find it's impossible. And regardless of your beliefs, if you think Medicare is going away with the elderly only gaining ground in population percentage then you're living in a dream world.

Medicare is here to stay, no question. It's also an economic cluster***. Doesn't it therefore make sense to move the rest of us as far AWAY from Medicare as possible? And you're missing the point on fixing the boat. You're still concentrating on how to help people pay for it. We should be concentrating on how to lower its cost so people can aford it on their own.

4) The FDA has no balls. Herbal supplements are classified as 'food supplements' and it takes a rash of deaths to even get the FDA to look into a supplement. Fine, but what will most likely happen is the same thing that happened in China: once we start national healthcare and can't afford/provide it, they'll bring in bull*** herbs/chiropractors/accupuncturists to provide unproven cures and call it healthcare. This also goes back to point 3 in that old people taking herbs for their heart are going to have the big one and then turn to real medicine when they're ready to soak-up more resources.

Okay now you're just being silly.

So what about:
Deregulation - 40 yr old men should not have to buy OB/GYN insurance because
"it's in the package"
Increased competition - drop the interstate ban
Portable health savings accounts - funds maintained when switching jobs
Get rid of the damn illegals! - I can tolerate taking care of them if
they're here, but they shouldn't be here.



All perhaps good plans but they only move money around and don't address the complete inadequecy of the healthcare system as we know it.

We don't have an inadequate healthcare system. We have an overregulated and overpriced healthcare system. The last thing we need is more govt involvment!

LG
--
If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert in five years there would be a shortage of sand. - Milton Friedman

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