Re: early lockdowns at VT


On Tue, 1 Jul 2008 08:12:30 -0400, "Bill Hileman"
<discgolfdad@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Jim Gysin wrote:
On Mon, 30 Jun 2008 15:47:44 -0700 (PDT), Huck Kennedy
<tempehuck@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Jun 29, 7:32 pm, Jim Gysin <jimgy...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Coffee is not intended to be served at a temperature high enough
to cause third degree burns, Bill.

Because Ralph says so!

And the court.

Do you even know what a third degree burn is, Jim?

I'm guessing that it's something that can be caused by spilling hot
coffee on yourself and then not doing much to get said hot coffee away
from your skin.

Stella was in her late seventies at the time. The very young and the very
old have a much smaller threshhold for burn tolerance in their skin. Stell
was wearing sweatpants, which managed to hold the spilled coffee in contact
with her skin longer than other materials might have. When the water is as
hot as it was, the contact time is minimal. The contact time goes down
exponentially as the temperature goes up. Do you honestly think this woman
did not try to get the scalding sweat pants off as quickly as she possibly
could? "Not doing much to get said hot coffee away from your skin," are you
kidding me?

According to the Wikipedia entry on the subject, Stella "sat in the
puddle of hot liquid for over 90 seconds." This is also stated in the
page at:

http://overlawyered.com/2005/10/urban-legends-and-stella-liebeck-and-the-mcdonalds-coffee-case/
or
http://snipurl.com/2sf1e

In looking through a handful of the other top Google results, I see
nothing else that confirms or denies the 90-second business.

You never did answer his question, by the way. There's a vast difference
between a first and a third degree burn. One -would- expect a first degree
burn from the scalding of 180 degree water. One would not expect a third
degree burn, to the extent that skin grafts would be needed.

90 seconds would seem to do it. Also from the Wikipedia article:

"[Stella] Liebeck's lawyers presented the jury with evidence that 180 °F
coffee like that McDonald's served may produce third-degree burns (where
skin grafting is necessary) in about 12 to 15 seconds."

Also from the article, and along the lines of what some of the court's
detractors have been saying here:

"Though defenders of the Liebeck verdict argue that her coffee was
unusually hotter than other coffee sold, other major vendors of coffee,
including Starbucks, Dunkin' Donuts, Wendy's, and Burger King, produce
coffee at a similar or higher temperature, and have been subjected to
similar lawsuits over third-degree burns.[14]"

So any attempts to claim that this was a McDonald's-only sort of policy
are ignorant, at best. (And please note that I'm not accusing you of
that.) Furthermore, the article continues with:

"Home and commercial coffee makers often reach comparable
temperatures.[15] The National Coffee Association instructs that coffee
be brewed "between 195-205 degrees Fahrenheit [91?96 °C] for optimal
extraction" and consumed "immediately". If not consumed immediately, the
coffee is to be "maintained at 180-185 degrees Fahrenheit." [16]"

So McDonald's was following the advice of the experts. But I guess
lawyers know more about the "proper" way to serve coffee than the
National Coffee Association knows. Ralph knows better, too, of course.

Could you
possibly say anything more stupid, Jim?

I dunno. Let me try. I also know that if I drive my car really,
really fast and run it into a brick wall, I might sustain an slight
skin abrasion, or worse. But I'm not gonna turn around and sue
Pontiac because I did something idiotic.

There. I said it. Does that qualify as "anything more stupid" in
your book, Ralph?

That's not stupid, Jim, but it's a bad analogy. Yours is not the only one
I've seen in this argument, however. For whatever reason, most people who
just don't seem to get the Liebeck case keep falling back on things like
that.

I don't agree that it's a bad analogy, as it demonstrates how bad
decisions can turn otherwise reasonably safe things into something
entirely unsafe. But for the sake of the discussion, let's make it a
bit more relevant by pointing out that water boils at 212F or
thereabouts, depending on atmospheric pressure, etc.

I'm gonna boil a kettle of water in a little while so that I can have
some instant decaf and/or hot tea over the course of the evening. Once
the water boils, I transfer it to a thermal carafe to keep the water hot
throughout the evening. Now, suppose the kettle whistles, and I take
the kettle over to the carafe for the transfer, and in the process I
spill hot water all over myself out of clumsiness. (Note that I'm not
even going so far as to say that I would be stupid enough to place the
kettle between my legs.)

Can I now sue the kettle maker for making a product that led to my
serious 212F burns?

--
Jim Gysin
Waukesha, WI
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: early lockdowns at VT
    ... Do you even know what a third degree burn is, Jim? ... coffee on yourself and then not doing much to get said hot coffee ... away from your skin. ...
    (rec.sport.football.college)
  • Re: early lockdowns at VT
    ... to cause third degree burns, ... coffee on yourself and then not doing much to get said hot coffee ... away from your skin. ... expect a first degree burn from the scalding of 180 degree water. ...
    (rec.sport.football.college)
  • Re: Starbucks Baristas Union Drive Comes at Key Time
    ... I hate to throw cold water on a good rant, but the "Hot Coffee versus ... Any punishment, (punitive damages), awarded against Jose would be ... McDonalds before that case. ... seconds to cause a third degree burn at 190 degrees. ...
    (alt.coffee)
  • Re: $8500.00 for hot mashed tatoes
    ... in contact with her skin" would still see a rapid and immediate drop in temperature, whereas in an actual immersion you've got this huge thermal mass to keep the temperature of the liquid in the contact area up. ... it would be impossible for the coffee in question to be above 212F, and extremely unlikely that it would even be that hot. ... 180+ degree coffee against her skin until the coffee cooled or until she stripped It makes perfect sense to me that she would suffer a tragic burn from someting like that -- I don't know if it woud be a realy bad 2nd degree burn or a 3rd degree burn. ...
    (rec.food.cooking)
  • Re: early lockdowns at VT
    ... Do you even know what a third degree burn is, Jim? ... coffee on yourself and then not doing much to get said hot coffee away ... old have a much smaller threshhold for burn tolerance in their skin. ...
    (rec.sport.football.college)