Re: FDR

Quiet, "J. Zaphod Beeblebrox" <victor.king1NOSPAM@xxxxxxxxxxx> -- I'm
transmitting rage.

Disculpa Senora James Schrumpf, pero did you really mime the following
on 3/14/2008 8:43 PM???
Quiet, stephenj <sjek@xxxxxxx> -- I'm transmitting rage.

Emperor Wonko the Sane wrote:
On Mar 14, 7:29 am, Tom Enright <freddy_ha...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Mar 13, 10:50 pm, "J. Zaphod Beeblebrox"

<victor.king1NOS...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

So, my 9th grader was assigned this term project on the New Deal
for his social studies class, and came home with a ton of books on
topics related to the same. I was idly perusing some of these the
last few days and I am more than convinced that FDR has to rank as
one of the top 3 (at least) presidents in the history of the U.S of
A. Certainly, he gets my vote as the No. 1 guy for at least the
20th century...
I know, I know, all you neocon types are probably having
apoplexies. But ***, this was a guy who was elected president not
once, not twice, not three times - but four consecutive times. I
mean they actually amended the constitution because of him. I
don't care what anyone says - the man was just awesome.
We've debated FDR before, fine, but it amazes me that people who
smack Bush around for his "power grabs" and his "using the
CONSTITUTION for toilet paper" can praise FDR. If a person on the
pro-FDR side wants to debate his legacy fine, but to be honest any
such discussion should start with: "while it is true that FDR
ignored the Constitution and the balance of power in magnitudes far
greater than any President of the 20th century, including George
Bush, I believe that this was acceptable because..." Every
FDR-lover I seem to meet hates George Bush for the very same reason
that they love FDR.

....and he was a racist who prolonged the Depression.

I haven't read it yet, but I'm going to:

http://www.amazon.com/Forgotten-Man-History-Great-Depression/dp/00609
...


A very good book. It's frightening how close we got to Soviet-style
economic planning.
i didn't like the book. too glibly conversational, and borderline
whiny, in its analysis of the new deal.

the goal of the ND was to get the USA out of depression, and it didn't
work. but 'spiritually' it did work, because the people were heartened
to believe the government was doing something about the problem, and
so they kept the faith in our system. and that was good enough, though
succeeding generations have paid and will continue to pay a heavy
price for some of the programs, such as social security, that
persisted long after the era was over.



Let's analyze this:

"the goal of the ND was to get the USA out of depression, and it didn't
work."

So I completely failed at its mission. OK, that's not really news.

"but 'spiritually' it did work, because the people were heartened to
believe the government was doing something about the problem, and so
they kept the faith in our system."

So maybe something that might have _actually_ helped with the
depression would have had an even better effect. Essentially you're
saying that by merely looking sternly at the problem and taking
decisive action, the government helped. Even though it didn't.

I wonder what life would have been like then if FDR hadn't implemented
his socialist/fascist plans and let the market do its thing? Maybe he
wouldn't have had to trick us into WWII do get the economy rolling
again.


Wow!

This has GOT to be the biggest load of complete bull*** that I have
ever read.

"Completely failed at its mission. OK, that's not really news?"

"Trick us into WWII to get the economy rolling?"

The depression was around 1928. We entered WWII around 12 years later,
- what the *** are you blabbering about?

We entered the depression on Black Tuesday, October 29, 1929. So much for
your grasp of history.

FDR was elected in the 1932 election, the depression lasted until just
before the US entered WWII and industry was mobilized to begin supporting
the Allied war effort -- Lend-Lease, if you know that that was. None of
FDR's programs did more than provide moral support during the actual
depression.


You know, all you asswipes who imply that YOU know better than the
overwhelming majority of the American populace - well frankly, I don't
know if I should be depressed or scared.

The "overwhelming majority of the American populace" don't know the true
history of the FDR years. All they get is the "FDR led us through the Big
One" hagiography. If you really look at what was going on, you get a
slightly different picture.



On a related note, I've been reading Major *** Winters's WWII memoirs
("Beyond Band of Brothers"), and I was struck by his comment that right
after 12/7 the country was amazed by a surprise attack by the Japanese
with no provocation.


SO?

So, you don't see how that if Americans had been aware of how the US was
cutting off Japanese raw materials, they might have been less surprised by
12/7? You do recall that Adm. Kimmel was cashiered for being less than
preepared?



Knowing what we now know about what the US was doing to Japan in terms
of blockade (95% of oil and rubber imports cut off, plus other
shortages), it's obvious that ordinary Americans of the time were
totally unaware of what the Roosevelt administration was up to.

I always used to wonder about the term "Roosevelt's War" that I read in
many articles and books from the time, and wondered why such a blame
was placed on his head for it. It's obvious now, however.


You're insane, man!


Do you even know the history of the time? The British and Americans were
blockading the Japanese assets of oil and rubber.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_World_War_II#Competition_for_resourc
es

http://tinyurl.com/3dqws9

Other than a few coal and iron deposits, Japan lacks true natural
resources. Japan, the only Asian country with a burgeoning industrial
economy at that time, feared that a lack of raw materials might hinder its
ability to fight a total war against a reinvigorated Soviet Union. In the
hopes of expanding its resources, Japan invaded Manchuria in 1931 and set
about to consolidate its resources and develop its economy. Insurgency by
nationalists south of Manchuria compelled the Japanese leaders to argue for
a brief, three month war to knock out Chinese power from the north. When it
became clear that this time estimate was absurd, plans for obtaining more
resources began. The Imperial Navy eventually began to feel that it did not
have enough fuel reserves.

To remedy this deficiency and ensure a safe supply of oil and other
critical resources, Japan would have to challenge the European colonial
powers over the control of oil rich areas such as the Dutch East Indies.
Such a move against the colonial powers was however expected to lead to
open conflict also with the United States. On August 1941, the crisis came
to a head as the United States, which at the time supplied 80% of Japanese
oil imports, initiated a complete oil embargo. This threatened to cripple
both the Japanese economy and military strength once the strategic reserves
would run dry. Faced with the choice of either trying to appease the U.S.,
negotiate a compromise, find other sources of supply or go to war over
resources, Japan chose the latter. Hoping to knock out the U.S. for long
enough to be able to achieve and consolidate their war-aims, the Japanese
Navy attacked the U.S. Navy at Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941. They
mistakenly believed they would have about a two year window to consolidate
their conquests before the United States could effectively respond and that
the United States would compromise long before they could get anywhere near
Japan.

* * *

How many ordinary Americans of the era knew this was going on? Obviously
not many, otherwise how to account for the total surprise among ordinary
Americans, especially since the US military had war plans dealing with a
Japanese attack on Pearl going back to the late '20s, and had warnings of
possible Japanese action against US assets months before it happened. How
many 1941 Americans were worried about a possible Japanese attack at the
time?

At least get a grasp of the total events of the era before you decide
what's "insane" or not.

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
James Schrumpf http://www.hilltopper.net

Play like your couch is on fire!
.

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