Re: Democrats Embrace Christianity


Charles Beauchamp wrote:
> walstib77 wrote:
> > Charles Beauchamp wrote:
> >> walstib77 wrote:
> >>> stephenj wrote:
> >>>> Jeff Davis wrote:
> >>>>> stephenj wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> walstib77 wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Much the same for the Dems and Christianity; the Dems have as
> >>>>>>> high a number of Christians as do the Republicans. The
> >>>>>>> difference is that the Dems don't use Christ as a tool; they
> >>>>>>> don't create wars over Christmas to distract from political
> >>>>>>> focus.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Read the book "partisan hearts and minds" by
> >>>>>> green/schickler/palmquist. These political science profs explain
> >>>>>> public perceptions of a party congeal around social identities -
> >>>>>> a sense of whether a party is "for" or "against" a given group.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Democrats have established themselves as "against" christians.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> No, they haven't.
> >>>>
> >>>> Sure they have. It's their public image, and it's well-earned. That
> >>>> doesn't mean all democrats are anti-christian, many are not.
> >>>> Arguably a majority are not. But that's the public persona of the
> >>>> party, which is defined more by its partisan-liberal-wacko special
> >>>> interest wing (ACLU types, etc.).
> >>>
> >>> You are defining the aggregrate by representation via a subset.
> >>>
> >>> And you may find it hard to believe, but there are CHRISTIANS who
> >>> are members of the ACLU.
> >>>
> >>
> >> There are people who lable themselves all kinds of things that are
> >> members of the ACLU. They tend to be indistinguishable from all of
> >> the other frothing at the mouth liberals that infest that
> >> organization.
> >
> > Yeah, those annoying Bills of Rights always get in the way. If you
> > aren't doing anything wrong, what are you afraid of, right?
> >
>
> Promoting an extreme liberal agenda has absolutely nothing at all to do with
> the Bill of Rights. The ACLU largely twists the Constitution into
> directions to suit their own agenda.
>
> >
> >>> The separation of church and state is at the core of American
> >>> ideology. The faction controlling the GOP seems to think they know
> >>> better than the founding fathers.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Separation of Church and State is a Baptist distinctive. Always has
> >> been. It would help if you knew what that actually means.
> >
> > You don't think that the concept is at the core of American values?
> >
>
> Strawman
>
> > You don't think the Supreme Court has held up the principle?
> >
>
> Strawman
>
> > You don't think the Pilgrims ventured here under the concept?
> >
>
> Strawman
>
> > You don't think Jefferson ever clarified his intent in the First
> > Ammendment?
> >
>
> Strawman
>
> Wow 4 straight. That has to be some kinda record.

You're the one arguing the strawman position; you seem to be claiming
that because the Baptists were espousing the separation of church and
state before the founding fathers were born that somehow my point that
it is at the core of American values is invalid.

My position is not refuted by your assertion; why make it?

> >>> The right-wing Christians who trumpet their religion as the "moral"
> >>> foundation for their un-Christian behavior have, indeed, fooled many
> >>> Americans into believing they are sincere when they use Gay Marriage
> >>> as bait to distract them from the real agenda of transfering wealth
> >>> to the wealthy and waging war to boost the petroleum and natural
> >>> gas industry.
> >>>
> >>
> >> It would be interesting if you could find...a single..one...example
> >> of anyone doing what you claim who is a member of the group you
> >> claim is doing what you claim.
> >
> > OK, let's start with the President, who promised a marriage
> > ammendment.
> >
> > Where is it?
> >
>
> How is that an example of what you claimed above?

Our President is embedded with the fossil fuels industry; hew is at the
very core of it. He is of it; it is the essence of his family's very
existence in politics.

Everything he does, he first does with consideration of how it relates
to his first priority--the fossil fuel industry.

He, channeling Rove, has trumpeted isdsues like Gay Marriage and
Abortion in election cycles, yet acting upon those issues is not what
is the purpose. Rather, it is to motivate Christians to support them
and their true agenda of transfering wealth to the elite, which if
presented honestly and openly would never pass muster with the voting
public.

Yet all evidence shows that once elected, abortion and other moral
issues go to the back of the bus with the negroes.

Why do Christians keep believing that the Republicans deserve their
vote, because of their position on abortion? They have control of the
Presidency, the Senate, the House of Representatives, and they've
appointed seven of the nine Supreme Court justices.

How much more support do they need to act?

Why don;t they act? Is it maybe because they know the general public
does not support abolition of abortion rights? Is it because if they
did, they would lose the carrot of abortion to move evangelicals to the
polls on this a priori issue for them?

Don;t know; whatever the reason, they sure aren't doing much on it.

THe same with Gay Marriage. You alleged it was the left making an issue
of it; I showed a link to where the President was trumpeting a marriage
ammendment early in the election year.

He won; where's the stinkin' effort?

I'll tell you where--it evaporated and turned into war on environmental
regulation; war on social security; war on taxes of the wealthy; and
war on countries without the threats we've been told they had.

In other words, bait and switch. The economy continues to languish and
the Dow is still mired below where it was when Bush took office, yet
the weapons contractoprs, the oil and gas industry, and Halliburton are
all doing famously well. Oil is setting recoreds with its profits;
Exxon had the biggest quarter of any business in the history of
business while there was supposedly an oil crunch.

Apparently SOMEONE is able to make enough oil that shortages are rare
even though prices skyrocket.

Where is the call for investigation of market fixing? Oil has
predator-prcied independents from the market, and now controls blanket
pricing nationwide. How is it that every day, regional gas stations are
all charging relative prices despite the volatility of said prices?

SImple: the prices are fixed. Hence the massive profits in alleged
times of limited supply.

Hope that helps top clarify my position. But I have a feeling you're
honkey-dorey with using religion as a tool to aid a hidden agenda to
boost elite wealth, even if it means using the military under false
pretense.

I mean, come ON, man. THis was the first administration since Grant to
have so many former executives from one industry appointed to the
government by the President. ANd it also was the first since Grant's
legendarily corrupt administr5ation to have a sditting WHite House
official indicted.

Bush is great for oil companies, but terrible for our country and our
constitution.

You can't spell "BUll***" without "BUSH."

> >> Just for fun though I will cite Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton as two
> >> liberals who claim to be Christians..who don't apparently know that
> >> the 12th chapter of the Book of Romans exists.
> >
> > What about it?
> >
> > Romans 12
> > Living Sacrifices
> > 1Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer
> > your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God-this is
> > your spiritual[a] act of worship. 2Do not conform any longer to the
> > pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your
> > mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is-his
> > good, pleasing and perfect will.
> > 3For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of
> > yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with
> > sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given
> > you. 4Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these
> > members do not all have the same function, 5so in Christ we who are
> > many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. 6We
> > have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's
> > gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his[b]faith. 7If
> > it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; 8if
> > it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the
> > needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let
> > him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it
> > cheerfully.
> >
> > Love
> > 9Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. 10Be
> > devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above
> > yourselves. 11Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual
> > fervor, serving the Lord. 12Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction,
> > faithful in prayer. 13Share with God's people who are in need.
> > Practice hospitality.
> > 14Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15Rejoice
> > with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. 16Live in harmony
> > with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with
> > people of low position.[c] Do not be conceited.
> >
> > 17Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right
> > in the eyes of everybody. 18If it is possible, as far as it depends on
> > you, live at peace with everyone. 19Do not take revenge, my friends,
> > but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to
> > avenge; I will repay,"[d]says the Lord. 20On the contrary:
> > "If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
> > if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
> > In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head."[e] 21Do
> > not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
> >
> > That verse 13, and again in 16, sure sounds like the Prez has a way to
> > go.
> >
>
> Interesting twist. I mention Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton and you say
> nothing about them as if that is not who I spoke of. Besides nothing in
> verses 13-16 indict the President at all.

Um, cutting foodstamps and healthcare for the poor is how he has chosen
to "Share with God's people who are in need?" So that the richest
people in the country can get even more tax breaks while we continue to
drive up the national debt, and do nothing to stop the hemmorraging
trade deficit?

> > Guess cutting health care benefits to the needy to finance Capital
> > Gains tax cuts for the wealthy is helping those in need?
> >
>
> I would sure like to see this fantasy proposal whereby the President offered
> up a Capital gainst tax cut "for the wealthy" that wasn't also
> for...well...the majority of Americans who actuall do invest and are not
> wealthy.

The bulk of the tax break goes to the richest people in the country,
and simultaneously, food stamps, health care, etc. are being cut.

> > Can you explain how?
> >
> >> Also nice trick pretending that right wingers use gay marriage as a
> >> distraction when it is not anyone on the right that actually brings
> >> up gay marriage legislation.
> >
> > REEEEEEEAly.
> >
>
> Yes. It is always 100% of the time...liberals that push this as an issue.
> You have never woken up anyday in your life in any state where this was not
> and issue and suddenly had legislation proposed by a conservative. It has
> always come in every single instance as a response...to liberals suddenly
> trying to force social engineering on the whole of society in the name of
> some non-existent special right.
>
> > INteresting.
> >
> > http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/02/20040224-2.html
> >
> >>> Where is that marriage ammendment we were promised? Seems no one has
> >>> made a peep about it of late. Too busy attacking Social Security and
> >>> fending off indictments, I guess.
> >>
> >> Interesting fantasy world you live in. Have you purchased your
> >> hypocrite fish yet to show that you embrace Christianity?
> >
> > Funny, you calling someone hypocrite is.
> >
> > Luke 19:8 (New International Version)
> > New International Version (NIV)
> > Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
> >
>
> Knowing what a hypocrite is, and knowing the twisting that you are
> performing in this thread...the question stands. You obviously embrace
> christianity so have you purchased your little burning fish?

I don't have to paste a symbol on my car.

> > 8But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, "Look, Lord! Here and
> > now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated
> > anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount."
> >
> > Here's a passage the Prez and his Veep might want to spend some time
> > pondering:
> >
> > Proverbs 6:
> > 12 A scoundrel and villain,
> > who goes about with a corrupt mouth,
> >
> > 13 who winks with his eye,
> > signals with his feet
> > and motions with his fingers,
> >
> > 14 who plots evil with deceit in his heart-
> > he always stirs up dissension.
> >
> > 15 Therefore disaster will overtake him in an instant;
> > he will suddenly be destroyed-without remedy.
> >
> > 16 There are six things the LORD hates,
> > seven that are detestable to him:
> >
> > 17 haughty eyes,
> > a lying tongue,
> > hands that shed innocent blood,
> >
> > 18 a heart that devises wicked schemes,
> > feet that are quick to rush into evil,
> >
> > 19 a false witness who pours out lies
> > and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers.
>
> You can never know what is in another man's heart. I for one find
> everything you are saying to be false witness since there is essentially no
> truth to your rant, and no evidence to support the liberal notion of the
> President (who is without question the most decent man to occupy the Oval
> Office in a generation) being evil.

He's a freaking liar. He lied blatantly about his DUI arrest. He has
lied about mriad things openly. He lied in the debates repeatedly.

He attacked McCain in the 2000 primary with lies. He mocked a condemned
woman who had even become a fellow Christian while he was considering
her dealth penalty case for possible clemency. (Yeah, right--he was the
Governor who oversaw the most executions without once offering a
commuted death sentence.)

He's not pro-life; he ran as a pro choice alternative to his opponent
in his first ever election campaign.

Then he lied about it in the 2000 election.

He changed positions for convenience, just like his father did. Bush 41
ran as the pro-choice alternative to Reagan in the 1980 primary, and
changed positions when Reagan won and the pro-life platform became
party policy.

W even lied about when he learned about the WTC attack while in that
classroom in Florida; he claimed he saw footage of the first plane
hitting the towers before he went into the classroom, and said his
first thought was "that is one lousy pilot."

But that is impossible; the footage of the first tower being struck was
not available to the media into much later, as it was taken by an
amatuer and not a network camera.

The guy will say anything to get his agenda through while concealing
his (and his cohorts') intents. He is a deceiver, and the fact that he
USES Christ as a tool sickens me.

> Besides...the NIV is toilet paper. Get a real Bible.

I have sevaral. The NIV is the one that best reaches the most people
most accurately to the original intent of the texts, IMO; that is why I
have chosen to use that version here.

To call it something scatological is pathetic.

.