Re: To Frank H. - on legitimacy and communication

On Nov 5, 7:59 pm, Matt <zeledo...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Nov 5, 8:24 pm, Frank <fhuguen...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:



On Nov 5, 6:06 pm, UTA <uta5l...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Nov 5, 7:20 pm, Frank <fhuguen...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Nov 5, 5:13 pm, Frank <fhuguen...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Nov 5, 4:11 pm, Kohn <nicholas.k...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Frank,
  you're correct - maybe I shouldn't use 1 video to come to the
conclusion that you're not an "unstoppable" force. I didn't get to see
your game versus Sockeye, but from written descriptions you were not
very effective on offense. [BTW -  Please don't bring up your layout
D. Good job on getting that, but you're by no means the first person
to get a D on Sockeye. Besides, that's defense, not offense.]

Please, ask Michael Stout.  He was a teammate up there and already
posted on rsd about my effectiveness.

If you say that the game of ultimate doesn't allow you to use your
superior abilities, well then the easy conclusion is to stop posting
here and enjoy playing a game better tailored/created for your skill
set (e.g., DiscHoops). Your argument is akin to a soccer player saying
that ultimate doesn't take advantage of their skill set - so that
person should stop arguing and just play soccer.

That's not what I said.  What I said was that it's currently very easy
to stop the motion offense.  Foul the crap out of us or call bogus
picks and travels on us.

Now, if you really do want to revolutionize the way offense is run in
ULTIMATE games (it's hard to understand what you want because you keep
oscillating between promoting change in ultimate and advocating
DiscHoops), then do what I suggested as far as forming a team that
uses this motion offense. You have to PROVE yourself and show people.
In your post above you state, "I'm the finest point guard in the
world." Well, unless you prove it, no one would believe you. That's
akin to me saying that I'm the best MMA fighter in the world. I can
say it as much as I like, but until I step into the ring and show it,
no one would/should believe me.

That's ridiculous.  I didn't say I'm the best cutter, handler or deep,
your terms.  I've never heard anyone outside of wigglins even refer to
themselves as a point guard.  I use the term point guard because my
mentality is that of a basketball point guard when I play disc.  Who
is a better point guard than me?

I hope this logic makes sense. I hope that you are right in your
belief of a way to improve ultimate. I love ultimate and like to see
diversity in the styles of play.  So, show it to us on a field against
another team.

I have nothing to prove.  I would like to help so hopefully I will get
my video made this winter.

Kohn

Kohn,

Let me set this straight.

What I'm saying when I say that if the best point guard in the world
is a 49 year old man than we have a serious problem here.  Wouldn't
you say?  I'm not bragging, I'm making an indictment against the sport/
rules/culture what have you.  You are completely twisting my words
around.

Any decent disc handler, with the right training would be a much
better point guard than me but nobody teaches things like triple
threat and motion offense so that just leaves me for now.

I apologize if you felt I was twisting your words around; it was not
my intention. What I was intending to say is that it seems ridiculous
to make a claim that you are the best "point guard" (or disc handler
or whatever you want to call it).

No, not handler.  There are lots of handlers.

A point guard is different and as far as I know, I'm the only one.

I'm not just reassigning a new name to an old position.  I'm
redefining a new position and applying basketball ideologies to a game
that has historically had a footballesque mentality to it.

You need to SHOW that you are it.
This is the root of your problems on here. You claim that you are the
best and you claim that your offense is the best.  No one will believe
you until you SHOW it. You mentioned you're going to make a video.
Great. Videographic evidence is ideal for people who have gotten to
see you/your offense in person. But before you waste your time making
the video, I hope in the video you plan to show this offense off in a
game of 7 vs 7. A real game against a decent team. That is the BEST
(and really only) way to convince people like me. In other words, you
won't convince people by making a video of you throwing at a tree,
some drills, or a few people running around pretending there's
defenders on them.

I don't believe this is true.  Yes, I'm hoping that when we get it
together, we can get some Jam/Revolver type players as a sparring
partner but again, I have nothing to prove.  I really, really don't
care if I'm taken seriously or not.

What I would like to do is put out a thought provoking type of video.
Something taken that will open some eyes, "oh, look, this play
happened here, and it did this to the defense and then this happened
and then that happened", all choreographed and called plays (not to
say that the plays will be staged but rather long sequences of called
plays).

In other words, whether there are winners or losers in the game is
irrelevant.  What is relevant is whether or not you find the Ultimate
and the Style of play interesting.  While Nationals may or may not
have been exciting or entertaining, there was really nothing about it
that was interesting.  Thought Provoking.  Intellectual.  When you
look at what goes on in the motion offense, you'll see a whole layer
of complexity in the game that hopefully you've never seen before.

If I can successfully pull this off, it should get a lot of people to
think differently about their approach to the game.

99% of the receivers initial action in the simulcast this past weekend
was to pivot away from the thrower.  I don't care if I'm 50 pounds
overweight and crippled, that's still a really horrible ratio of one
play to another.  Whether you think it should be 50/50, 60/40 or
70/30, in what sport is the ratio of one option vs. another 1/99?
That's just dumb.  You'll see what I'm talking about in my video
(hopefully).  My take on this ration is that it should be somewhere
around 80/20 instead of 1/99.  In other words, not only are the
initial pivots disproportionately away from the thrower, but my ratio
would almost be completely the opposite of how you guys play the game.

Frankly, I hope people can take the video and take the kinds of plays
I run orders of magnitude beyond where I've taken it.  In that
context, yeah, I'm probably fairly mediocre but because I'm the only
one currently doing it, for the time being I'm the best at it.  It's
not about athleticism.  It's about having the right combination of
skills to break down a defense and then knowing how to exploit where
the defense is compromised.

Good luck with your endeavor. I look forward to you changing our
perspectives on ultimate.
Kohn

I have to say, I appreciate the slightly mellower, more constructive,
less inflammatory Frank.  Telling people they suck is about the worst
way to get them to change.  This might actually turn into a productive
strategy discussion (though really, referring to Ben as "wigglins" is
pretty juvenile).

BLW asked me to never use his name again on RSD (which I believe is
juvenile) so I'm left with little choice other than to refer to him as
Bobby Lou Wigglins.

That said, I'd like clarification on a couple things:
1) How does the motion offense "wreck ultimate"?  Does it make it not
fun?  Is it against the rules?

It's very fun. For the first six months. But when you get to the
point where you're scoring at will, the game becomes more or less
pointless. Where's the challenge?

2) How do the rules of ultimate not provide a level playing field?
The rules are the same for everyone (though without referees, they're
not enforced anything close to the same).  Is there anything more to
it than that they don't provide a playing field conducive to your
preferred style of play?  I could come up with an offense that
involves one of my teammates tackling a defender to create a wide-open
receiver.  The rules clearly don't provide a level playing field for
that strategy.  How is yours any different?

Geesh, I suppose I should have a rsd F.A.Q. for this questions that
people ask again and again.

Not only is enforcement arbitrary, but without penalties, the teams
that adhere closer to the rules are at a disadvantage, wouldn't you
say? Add on to that verbage such as 'as quickly as possible' to
define how many steps are required to stop and you've got a system
that encourage players to turn a blind eye. I'm not saying that
people cheat consciously but the framework promotes a lack of
awareness. Sort of a don't ask, don't tell.

Do you think that creates a level playing field for teams that go out
of their way to play by the rules?

3) What exactly is a point guard in ultimate, and how does it differ
from being an offense's main handler?

I keep saying it over and over again, I run an offense in Ultimate
that is based on basketball.

What does a point guard do in basketball? They dribble-drive,
penetrate, distribute the ball and get the ball to the open shooter.
They are measured by how many assists they get and by their assists to
turnover ratios.

I dribble in Ultimate and as far as I know, I'm the only one. I make
the players around me better. I put them in position to have open
shots without markers. I measure my success by assists (which is why
I define as an assist as the person who throws to the person who
throws the score).

 I could say I'm the best tight
end or goalkeeper in ultimate, and it would be about as meaningful.

Sure. You go ahead and say whatever baseless thing that you want.

Saying that you have the mentality of a basketball point guard when
you play isn't very helpful, unless you can translate that into
actions.

I dribble. I penetrate. I run an offense where the thrower does the
lion's share of the cutting and the other players don't cut very much
at all.

4) What are the three threats in your "triple threat"?

Dribble, Pass or Score. Just like basketball.


Matt

Frank
.

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