Re: sportsmanship vs sotg

First, the costs issue is an example of you not participating in a
back-and-forth discussion (I view "too complicated to engage in ANY
discussion" as a cop-out).  It's also an example of Todd not
participating in a back-and-forth discussion (he's thrown out a $1-$3
per player per game number, but refuses to discuss it further, even
when he changes his suggested pay rates).  And it's an example of Todd
being very selective in what information he shares with the people
he's trying to attract.  He's quick to disparage the current system
and preach the glory of refs and he uses the players' money as the
basis of the system's feasibility (attracting and compensating
officials), but he refuses to even explore how much it might cost in a
meaningful way.  This is a big deal.  He's unwilling to discuss the
basis for his system working.


Again, you're focusing on one person's opinion on this issue. I've
said in times past that Todd and I are moving in the same direction,
but most likely have different destinations.

Regarding your desire to discuss the costs, I believe we need to
clarify a subtle but important distinction. Your questions on
logistical costs are in regards to an 'established system', whereas my
position and comments are in support of 'recognizing a legitimate
option'. In short, I would be more responsive to a discussion on: How
much would it cost to have a UPA endorsed manual on refereed ultimate?

More than simply dollars, this would require time and effort, of which
both are difficult to quantify w/ regards to a pool of paid and
voluntary staff. Moreso, considering the fair possibilty that such a
venture would interest and leverage the time/efforts of current UPA
members interested in pursuing such an option.

You could counter that UPA has other priorities, which I will concede
is a fair possibility at any given time. But to suggest that simply
'recognizing this option' and providing a controlled forum to which
interested members/volunteers can contribute their own time and
effort, is simply 'too much effort' on UPA's part seems to be a biased
direction on UPA's part.

This eventually draws into the question: Is self officiation an
essential part of our sport, ultimate? With the increasing support of
the observer systems, and emphasis on TMFs/PMFs, it seems that
participants of this sport are increasingly differentiating 'the
sport' and 'how it is officiated', yourself included.



Second (really).  Todd and I are in general agreement that 4 refs is
the minimum number of officials you'd need to reasonably make all the
calls.  In my experience as a player and a certified observer, teams
of two observers can have a very positive impact on the game (and no
negative impact), but would not be able to take over the task of
making all the calls.  In order to work at all, the ref system needs
twice as many officials as the observer system.  This creates very
real issues of cost and availability of personnel.  Again, if Todd is
going to explain away the availability issue with money, he needs to
address the cost issue.


I somewhat assumed you were invested in the observer program.
Granted, you are a player first, but can you recognize how others,
such as myself, perceive this viewpoint both as insight/bias?

As for your continued 'concern' on costs and availibility of
personnel, there is no commitment (imo) required with a legitimate
option that players can equally ignore or choose.

And dude, I don't claim to 'know it all', or 'what's best'. No one
should. That's why legitimate options and free choice are the best
bet, imo.
.

Relevant Pages

  • Deal reached to curb F1 costs
    ... deal Tuesday to cap the cost of engines supplied to smaller teams as ... The deal was reached at a meeting between the FIA president, ... The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because the details ...
    (rec.autos.sport.f1)
  • Re: Dallas: columnist on huge bridge cost overrun
    ... Dallas officials tried to fool themselves into thinking it was a valid cost ... bridge, the most recently-built cable-stayed bridge in Texas. ...
    (misc.transport.road)
  • Re: re-painting tile question
    ... t@xxxxxxxxx (Todd H.) writes: ... Should I try getting ALL the old paint off? ... There are similar competing processes. ... The cost was very reasonable too. ...
    (alt.home.repair)
  • Re: OT:Apparently theyll let anyone become a dad...
    ... > whether it was the officials, Brady or Dillon who cost the Pats their ...
    (alt.sports.football.pro.ne-patriots)
  • Re: Tyler Perry has yet another #1 movie?
    ... Tyler's movies don't gross a whole lot, but they don't cost much ... Jason "Dude was great in Star Trek too" Todd ...
    (rec.sport.pro-wrestling)