Re: Head Beagle's Post (too long to be buried deep within the Motion Offense thread)


"Head Beagle" <westd@xxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:1187410946.838489.165950@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I've been moving with the disc for at least 15 years, legally. It works.

No, you haven't. You have never maintained uninterupted possession of
the disc while covering 30 feet of field as a basketball player can do
while dribbling the ball. It is called a travel. You can't do it in
ultimate. You may have been moving while passing the disc between a
teamate and yourself, but that is entirely different.


Consider this, every time a basketball player dribbles, he is passing the
ball to himself. It's illegal to pass to themselves without the ball
touching the floor, backboard or another player so they use the flloor.

And besides, when I say that I've been moving with the disc, I didn't say I
retain possession, just that I move with the disc.


Not sure what to say here other than just about when the defender
'catches
up', I'll carve out a move in the opposite direction.and never completely
give back 100% of the separation I earned. It's like carving up mogels.


Which is EXACTLY what everyone else tries to do in the same situation.
Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Where is the revolutionary
thinking??

No, I've never seen anybody do this. At least in this context. All the
give and go motion I ever see is linear (and usually illegal). What I'm
suggesting here is to run counter direction plays, misdirection, etc. and to
be able to run penetration moves in 360 degrees. And please get off the
revolutionary thinking. As far as I can tell, my thinking is significantly
different from the masses. I don't know about revolutionary. Just
different.

One thing unique about my give and go moves is that usually when I get the
disc back, I've got a pivot foot by the second or third ground contact and
I'm balanced as quick as possible. Nobody does this.



It's a case of match-ups. You draw any field configuration with x's and
o's
and there will be on obvious strong side and weak side to each defender,
yeah (the weak side being the side the plays to the receiver's
strength --
i.e. if a defender is facing up a cutter from entering the backfield, the
downfield side of the cutter is the weak side for the defense).

What penetration allows is for the disc to be moved to the weak side of
the
defenders. This is by design. You have to admit that if you could invert
the defense so that the strong side becomes the weak side, you've got the
defense at an advantage. You combine that with the fact that you're
running
a spread formation so that you'll have multiple options in which ever
direction you go, you've got up to three options BEFORE you get to a 1000
ms. And yes, of course there are times where I hold on to the disc for
3-5
seconds (which is why I have to throw a lot of 50 ms. throws to keep my
average down.


Basically you are saying to use rapid disc movement to place the
defense out of position.

No, I'm saying use penetration moves to compromise the defense.

In terms of TEAM offense, sounds like a break
mark throw,

I rarely throw break mark throws. I don't need to.

or a swing pass to the break side

I don't do this much either.

or a give and go
followed by a quick throw to the break side before a defender catches
up.

Nor this.

In terms of individual offense, sounds like throwing to the space
away from the defender, allowing the offense the maximum possible
advantage in making the catch.

Generally speaking, I don't believe in throwing to a space (what I label
indirect throws). I prefer to throw direct throws to players who are posted
up.


All things I figured out to teach my team the first year I was
playing. Where is the revolutionary thinking?

You're only taking what I've posted, and trying to bracket it of frame it in
terms of how you already think. You have to think outside the box here to
be able to understand me but I get the impression that you're really not
making an effort to understand me.



A person who runs a different offense than a stack or what ever other
stupid
*** offense that's going to put someone in the hospital shouldn't be
penalized because of their lameness.

If you understood the motion offense, you'd understand why I make this
assertion.


The point of the rules is to keep people out of the hospital, not to
cater to any particular offensive strategy. If your offense doesn't
create picks, great, you shouldn't have to worry about it.

My offense does create picks. They just happen to be outside the legal
limit of 3 meters. The pick rule does cater to stupid offenses and weak
players.


What, 80 years old? Give and go moves in basketball have been around for
ever.


Exactly. Soccer too. Ultimate players picked it up pretty quick. Where
is the revolutionary thinking?

Exactly. Just where is the revolutionary thinking in Ultimate? It doesn't
exist. The lack of firm boundaries and penalties prevent this. Ultimate
hasn't evolved in 25 years.

You can remain cynical. That's fine. What I know is that I can't stand to
watch even the best teams play. They are boring, cheaters and not highly
skilled (but very talented).



Yes, but without being a *** about it, can you do it with the disc in
your
hand, at will and with a variety of throws, pivot feet, hands, etc.



Still trying to figure out how you are cutting with the disc in your
hand?? Also, you ignored my observation about the video evidence
indicating that you do not, as you claim, use a variety of pivots and
hands, but are a right handed, left footed thrower like most ultimate
players.

Like a baseball pitcher who pushes off the rubber on the mound to put more
power into a pitch, I use my cleats to push off to put more power into my
give and go throws but the pivot foot doesn't come up until after I release
the disc.

As for video evidence, I've got some video evidence of the loch ness monster
and bigfoot. Seriously, you've never seen me play, what do you know?

This is one of the biggest problems in the 'community'. You're judging me
based on what exactly?


Will you get off of this ***. I've never said anything remotely close
to
that. What I've said was why are there not hundreds of players who can
legally execute many, many different give and go moves. That is all.

For the last time, I've never said I'm great. That's almost the beauty
of
it.



"I challenge anyone in the world to excel at juke till you puke with a
wider
assortment and array of moves, balance, footwork and throws than me. "

"Are you aware of anyone who can even approach this
number of different give and go moves? Balanced? And WITHOUT
traveling?


Give me a break. "



Comments like this seem to imply that you don't think anyone can do
what you can do, thereby making you the greatest.

Not the greatest, only the first.

I'm the best at my position (point guard) only because as far as I know, I'm
the only one. This doesn't make me great at all. Only different.




"I've said I think differently and I've been thinking differently for
15
years and that I don't enjoy watching contempory ultimate. It's
boring.


People ask, "who the hell are you" and since I don't play on an elite
team,
I've never won nationals, I haven't written any books so I attempt to
qualify myself with my caps. Don't mean to be egoistic and frankly,
there
is NOTHING I'd rather see than to see dozens of players with 40+ give
and go
moves.


32 more to go for you. "

If I were to break down every possible give and go move that I use,
breaking down by footwork, throw, hand, pivot, etc, I could make up a
list of 40. No problem. Don't really feel like doing this, but I
could. I use each of them when the situation dictates. Same as every
other ultimate player.

Sweet. I find it bizarre though that so many players have all these skills
but never use them in tournament play (at least here on the west coast). I
guess they're saving these skills for next year.

Where is the revolutionary thinking?

The knowledge comes after applying these moves for an extended period of
time (years) and internalizing the effect they have on the defense. Gaining
a sixth sense for just how much separation you're gaining on a player so
that you can give half of it back and still retain possession.
Understanding how 'help' is going to come from secondary defenders and
knowing how to fight through the eventual double team and find the open
shooter.

There are layers of thinking that you can only gain through practice and
experience (or at a minimum, watching video, none of which I've seen has
anything like what I'm thinking).





Now, as for your throws. Yeah, you can throw a lot of weird ways.

Yep. They called the backhand lift a weird and not necessarily applicable
game throw 20 years ago when I invented that one as well.

Not neccesarily game applicable, but cool nonetheless.

Again, your idea of applicability is based on the offensive ideologies that
you've been indoctrinated with.

I wouldn't mind
being able to throw some of those throws as well as you, even if just
for fun. I have been working on what you call the sidearm lift for
awhile now, although I called it a hook push because it is a variant
of a push pass.

Yep, I considered calling it a hook as well and sometimes do. It has the
opposite spin of a push pass though so I wouldn't call it a variant.

Use it in games every now and then. Another tool in
the belt, but nothing to spectacular.

It is if you can pull it off at the right time against the right team.

And besides, being able to present the defense with two more (right and
left) looks that they have to defend against is valuable in and of itself
even if you never get the throw off. I like the sidearm lift fake exactly
for this reason because it's a 'big' throw. In other words, due to the hook
action, it's pretty easy to get a defender up in the air on the side that
you fake on.

However, I have never seen any
evidence to suggest that you are particularly efficient/useful with
basic throws (backhand, forehand) in game situations, nor have I seen
evidence that your wide array of throws would make you a significantly
better ultimate player if you were to play ultimate.

So what. I'm I on trial? What's the need for evidence that you seek? And
besides that, even if my backhand and sidearms sucked, what's your point?
That I went off and crafted an entirely unique ideology because I'm an
incompetent conventional thrower? Throughout the entire 80's, I played
conventional offenses and had above average throwing abilities.

My basic throws are in league with most any elite player (*my lungs and legs
may not be but my throws certainly are). The Chicken Wing Scoober though is
most definitely a spectacular throw if thrown properly.

As for DiscHoops. Sounds like an interesting variant of disc sports. I
would like to play, I like playing most sports. Is it going to replace
ultimate?? No, but it would probably be fun.

Ultimate is not going away. I only wish it would. I just like to goof on
all you guys and say that Dischoops will replace it.

Ultimate is perfect for PE classes, beaches, barbeques and bar mitzvas.

I'd like to see Dischoops someday replace Ultimate as the disc sport of
choice for serious and highly skilled competitors.

As for your pizza place, it sounded pretty cool. An interesting
combination of culinary styles, I would have liked to have tried it
sometime.

I'm still trying to resurrect the concept. There wasn't a day that went by
where some customer (usually several) didn't say "This is the best pizza
I've had in my life". That's pretty cool. Pizza is a $35B market and mine
was the best for a lot of people.

If I am ever in the bay area, I will come play dischoops and
try to convince you to cook me some pizza. I won't tell you I am Head
Beagle though, because you probably wouldn't make me pizza if I did.

That's not true. I love Ultimate players, even the ones that dog me.

You have to understand that I have compassion for the entire Ultimate
community. They are very stuck and for a multitude of reasons (which is why
there isn't one easy fix). Look at most of your arguments. They are
dated. Same ol, same ol. You're putting your opinions up against my
knowledge and so therefore, the only way to victoriously exit the argument
is to discredit me in one form or another.


.

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