Re: God damnit Bambu... You too Bob!

On Jan 30, 7:16 pm, "Dan White" <dwhite...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
"Bambu" <dmanass...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message

news:df82e596-19ba-4d4c-837c-a0cc771dc98f@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Bambu:
   If you try to minimize the squirt on purpose, whats the point? All
that shows is that squirt and swerve can be minimized. He says he is
minimizing the swerve, while "adjusting" for squirt,  but squirt and
swerve go hand in hand. One cannot exist without the other. Only a
newbie might think cueballs never curve.

reply:
With all due respect, in sincerity, I think you just don't understand the
difference between swerve and squirt, and for that matter what spin is
responsible for cue ball curve.  

Gosh Dan your right. Whats swerve? Whats a cueball? Whats pool? Do we
swim in it?

Until you do, it will be hard for anybody
to get a point through to you.  

I posted this link to show the squirt and swerve path. I aint gonna
copy and paste the whole thing.


Swerve and squirt don't really have anything
to do with each other, and your saying "One cannot exist without the other"
shows that you haven't understood much of the discussion in this group over
the last few months.  

Thats because I dont shoot upside down. So for me, when there is
squirt, there is also swerve.



Swerve is a curving of the cue ball path caused by a
downward (even slightly) hit from the cue while english is being applied.

Thanks, I never heard of swerve until now(lol).

Left or right english has nothing to do with swerve.  


I see, so you can jack up and get curve without any english.
Impressive dan. You should tour with FL.

Squirt is the cue ball
being pushed aside by an off center hit from the cue tip (like when applying
english).  You can have squirt without swerve if you just hit with a
perfectly level cue.

Keep clinging to the level cue crap. Its a good point I guess, but
thats about it. Pool tables have rails, and nobody drags their
knuckles on the cloth as they stretch for shots either.

So Dave is MINIMIZING swerve by using as level a cue as he can, and he is
ADJUSTING for squirt by aiming a little closer to the tape measure so that
the cue ball squirts away and goes parallel to the tape measure.

Ok fine. I still dont like that example because object balls dont
squirt. After the squirt, its easy enough to get curve if you want it.

Bambu:
  But you arent looking at the curves I am anyway. I am talking about
the end of the film, where he just spins the ball with his hand.
There, curve is shown without the downward hit. He even gives a
scientific explanation, regarding the friction on the leading edge of
the ball being greater than that of the trailing edge. Thats not table
roll, or dirt, or the tides, or the moon either. Regardless of how
useful, or the actual size of the effect....it is real.

reply:
Why don't you ask Dave if he thinks he has demonstrated cue ball curve by
spinning the ball by hand?  You seem to miss the point that he is spinning
the ball by hand and observing its path as a way to think through his THEORY
about forces acting on the ball and cloth.

I dont need to ask him, I did already. I also see it in the video. You
want to think that particular curve, or ball turn in general is just a
theory, you can. I see it curve, so thats fact enough for me. Ball
turn is real, not a theory. Its just not very significant or useful,
but that does not make it fake.


In the video> I just brought up the issue of cue ball curve at the beginning because he
was hitting down on the cue ball a little, and that part of the cue ball
path (early on) should be ignored for the purposes of the video, which was
to test the idea that the english on the ball causes curve, or turn or

bend.

I agree, the first part, as in the bottom half of the dotted line in
fig. 2 should be ignored because of squirt.

http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2002-08.pdf

Bambu:
If you dont think english can cause cue balls to curve, you are just
plain wrong. I hate to regress, but fig. 2 shows more or less...how a
ball hit with extreme left spin travels. Scroll down to fig. 3 on "use
of side" and it shows a similar pattern.

reply:
Here's an idea:  Ask Dave this simple question:  "Does english cause a cue
ball's path to curve"?  I don't think you will ask the question because you
are afraid of the answer.

Quote Bambu:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And I agree, its hard to reproduce the curve effect with just sidespin
alone. Also, at the very end of the shot (or any shot), I also agree
that the table takes over the roll of the ball. Overall, very well
done, no complaints, point well taken. Sidespin can cause a small
amount of curve, depending on the shot.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Agreed, but again this is not an effect I think can be used to one's
benefit in pool game situations. I think there would always be better
(less risky and easier) alternatives than trying to rely on "ball
turn."

-and-


If a CB rolling with sidespin can turn, then so can an OB with a small
amount of transferred English.

Regards,
Dave




The clear result was that the english had no measureable effect on the
path
of the cue ball. Of course if there WERE a curve to the cue ball path, it
would have been due to this downward force from the cue, not due to the
english.

Nope. Spin transfer alone can also make balls curve, just not as much
as a downward hit with english would.

Look at the end of the video. No cue at all, no downward hit....ball
still curves, explanation follows.

reply:
See above.  If you think this was a real test of "no downward hit" you are
mistaken.

I dont know why you would say that. Ron seems to accept testing with
spinning balls.

Dave's cloth pushing theory, apparently, is false according to> Ron. I didn't see the reasoning why, but I'm pretty sure if Ron says it
there is good reason.

 You dont like the cloth pushing theory, no problem. You are free to
disagree, thats what makes us human. I can only try to debate my
point. I cant force anything upon anybody. From what I understand, Ron
is just as much of an expert as dave is. So whether right or wrong,
agree or disagree, I dont see why it should be so impossile to at
least respect both opinions.

reply:
I respect all honest opinions.  I do not respect yours because you have
changed your position dramatically to the point where we are now discussing
curve effects that can't be seen, but can possibly be proven to exist
theoretically.  

How do you figure I changed my position? I never said it cant be seen,
only ron did. It cant exist and be a theory at the same time. Either
its real, or its not. This document says its real.

http://billiards.colostate.edu/technical_proofs/new/TP_B-2.pdf


If you consider that a validation of your original assertion
that you can curve an object ball enough to help you out in a game then I'm
happy for you.



It can help me out in a game, though not very often. I even posted an
example of that, with a shot to back it up. You should go read about
it before trying to cut me down. But this hasnt been about how useful
ball turn is anyway. Its been about whether it is genuine or not, and
it certainly is in my book.
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: God damnit Bambu... You too Bob!
    ... If you try to minimize the squirt on purpose, ... that shows is that squirt and swerve can be minimized. ... newbie might think cueballs never curve. ... responsible for cue ball curve. ...
    (rec.sport.billiard)
  • Re: Curving an object ball? (Part 3)
    ... That dotted line (at the bottom of the figure that touches the cue ... against the ball. ... there will still be some amount of curve present. ... Only that in a case like that, the squirt effect dominates the curve ...
    (rec.sport.billiard)
  • Re: Curving an object ball? (Part 3)
    ... That dotted line (at the bottom of the figure that touches the cue ... against the ball. ... The squirt force occurs only at the moment the tip ... there will still be some amount of curve present. ...
    (rec.sport.billiard)
  • Re: God damnit Bambu... You too Bob!
    ... I am glad I am not the only one who sees the slight curve. ... Dave liked ball turn better, ... he tried to minimize the squirt effect in the video. ... was hitting down on the cue ball a little, and that part of the cue ball ...
    (rec.sport.billiard)
  • Re: God damnit Bambu... You too Bob!
    ... I am glad I am not the only one who sees the slight curve. ... Dave liked ball turn better, ... he tried to minimize the squirt effect in the video. ... was hitting down on the cue ball a little, and that part of the cue ball ...
    (rec.sport.billiard)