Re: Bambu and Bob Jewett's Shot

On Jan 29, 12:40 pm, Ron Shepard <ron-shep...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
In article
<9715fe6b-9895-4243-89de-0222c3fa2...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,

 Bambu <dmanass...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Ok, so I'm talking about shooting the 1-ball straight, and you are
talking about cutting it by some arbitrary amount.

I dont know why you would think you have to hit the 1 ball straight.

Because if you don't shoot at the ball straight, then you are not
just measuring the effect of speed on the throw, you are measuring
the difference between throw to the right and throw to the left.

Youre right, they are 2 different things. Perhaps one or both of us
was not specific enough. Pitfalls of a forum.


If you look closely by freezing bobs video, you can see that the ball
starts out on one side of the straight edge, but finishes on the
opposite side by the time the ball gets to the end of the run. His
other shot does look straight, but all it takes is one curve to prove
my point.

But starting close to one ruler and finishing close to the other
ruler does not mean there was a curve.  The ball can roll in a
straight line and do the same thing.  Isn't that obvious? Bob Kelelr
said it was straight, and he was there to see the shot without
camera distortion.

To prove that the ball curves, it would need to start close to one
ruler, then be close to the other ruler, and then curve back to be
close to the first ruler again.

Or, in Dr. Dave's setup with a single ruler, it would need to start
off at some distance, then either curve away from the edge or curve
toward the edge, and then curve back toward the original distance.  
Just rolling closer (or farther) over the distance does not mean
there was a curve.

I'm not saying there is a curve one way, then another, and back
again....no. I am just saying that the ball will not always go
straight, that the sidespin can make a ball curve or turn slightly. I
suppose "ball turn" is a better word to describe this. The word curve
seems to be misleading.


When two straight lines are not parallel, that does not prove that
one of them is curved.

Only if it was a straight diagonal from end to end. Any slight turn in
the middle of the path shows curve.

Or, just look at this one. If a ball can curve from sidespin
as in this video, why not in other shots? Its a very similar reaction,
no downward hit but the ball still curves.

http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-7.htm

But he shows that the ball curves a slight amount even without
sidespin at slow speeds.  He explains in detail that it is due to
equipment imperfections and dirt in the cloth.  He also states over
and over that the spinning balls appear to roll in straight lines
(which they do, according to theory on perfect equipment).

He also talks about the possibility of pushing the cloth in front of
the rolling ball causing curve, but he is just wrong about that, and
if he had thought about it for a few minutes, he would have realized
that mechanism does not work.  It took them a while to figure that
out over in the Billiards Digest forum, but you knew that already
because we had discussed it for several weeks here in RSB before you
started the thread over there.  You could have set them straight on
that point, but for some reason you didn't.

I didnt set them straight because I never agreed with you. Thats why I
went there in the first place. You disagree with Dave when he says
the possibility of pushing the cloth in front of the rolling ball can
cause curve, and thats ok. But if it wasnt true, how could the ball in
his video clearly curve without the downward hit?

To see a curve, it would have to move from one side to the other,
and then move back again.  

Why does it have to move back again? Anything deviating from the
straight path is a curve. There is no need for an "S" pattern to show
the curve effect.

It needs to curve back again to eliminate the obvious possibility
that the ball rolls in a straight line that is not parallel to the
edge of the ruler.  I'm not talking about S curves, just a simple
bend, where the middle of the path is bowed either away from the
edge or toward the edge.

Again, only a totally straight line from end to end(regardless of how
parellel) would show that it went straight. It doesnt need to curve
back again, only once. As I have said, when the curve happens it goes
straight, turns or curves slightly, goes straight again.

That is the same kind of curve that, if it actually existed, would
allow you to successfully shoot Bob Jewett's shot.  It is the same
kind of curve that you think happens on your shot setup, yet you
have not demonstrated it and you have not been able to explain to
anyone else how to execute it.

Again, I am not talking about a parabola....just not a dead straight
line.


You can hit the diamond with a hard shot, or the long rail if you hit
it soft enough. Thats over a 10 inch difference.

You seem to be saying that there is no throw at all at high speeds,
and over a diamond of throw at slow speeds.  I have never seen any
balls that behave that way.  Are you sure you are hitting the ball
at the same angle every time, and only the shot speed is changing?

Not the same angle, no. Glad thats settled. The results cannot be that
different.

Hitting the frozen combination shot on different sides results in
throw in different directions.  That is not a speed effect.  If you
had said you were throwing the ball in different directions, instead
of saying that it was the soft hit vs. the hard hit that made the
difference, this point would have been settled weeks ago.

I can accept the blame for not being more specific. But I think you
did say that when using the same contact points:

At high
shot speeds I get about 7 inches of throw on a six-diamond length
frozen-combination shot, at slow shot speeds I get about 8 inches of
throw.

So do you mean to say that you only get a 1 inch difference between
hard and soft(when using the same contact points? That still doesnt
seem right to me. Just to be sure though, I will try the same shot
again at different speeds, but using the same contact points.

Keep in mind, if earl strickland didnt believe the
shot was possible, he probably wouldnt make it either. Its tough for
anyone to make shots they dont think are possible.

This is another myth.  The balls don't really know what you are
thinking, they just do whatever they do all on their own, right?  
Players, especially beginners, make all kinds of shots that they
don't think are possible.  Even a simple frozen-combination shot
with throw is an example.  You line up the balls to the side of the
pocket, and ask a beginner if it will go into the pocket, and he
will probably think it is impossible because he does not understand
object ball throw.  Yet when you show him where to hit, he will
pocket the ball because it was wired (destined) for the pocket.  
Unfortunately, the converse is also a myth.  You cannot make an
impossible shot just because you think it is possible.



You seem to take some things I say I say, a bit too literally. Sure
an easy throw shot can be made by just about anybody, but what about
when things become harder?
Try asking a beginner to hit a 5 foot draw shot, or a difficult
masse shot. He knows its possible, but he cant do it. When might it
become possible for him then? Its just like anything else. Understand
how its done, and your chances of getting the job done properly go up.
The first problem with trying to make a shot you think you cant
make, is a lack of confidence. Second is the inability to visualize
the shot actually going in. Thirdly, if you are thinking at all while
you are shooting, thats also a mistake. One side of your brain does
the thinking, and the other side does the shooting. Its always best
not to mix the 2. First think, then shoot. Dont get down and start
stroking, as you consider what to do.


.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Curving an object ball? (Part 3)
    ... shot with english is like a mini masse shot, ... caused by a different principle than the curve of a billiard ball. ... the cue ball can curve after hitting an object ...
    (rec.sport.billiard)
  • Re: Curving an object ball? (Continued)
    ... itself) does not cause the cue ball to curve. ... In a masse shot, the curve begins as soon as the ball leaves the ... No one is saying that the cue ball does not curve when you hit ...
    (rec.sport.billiard)
  • Re: Curving an Object Ball(Part V-Debunking the Myths)
    ... every shot? ... something else entirely that causes the cue ball to curve. ... will see is that object ball throw is the same on the slick surface ...
    (rec.sport.billiard)
  • Re: Curving An Object Ball(Part VI-Letting it All Hang Out))
    ... I never said I was consistent at getting the curve to occur. ... In Bob's shot setup, in particular, if you miss the blocking ball by ... because you were getting object ball throw and curve confused. ...
    (rec.sport.billiard)
  • Re: Curving an object ball? (Part 3)
    ... shot with english is like a mini masse shot, ... The air and gravity are not enough to curve it ... caused by a different principle than the curve of a billiard ball. ... That is because an elevated cue is essential for the masse curve. ...
    (rec.sport.billiard)
Loading