Re: OT- Global warming or not

dazed and confuzzed <dedmann@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in
news:NcKdncIdNOrHfNnanZ2dnUVZ_tWtnZ2d@xxxxxxxxxxx:

I don't need education on veggie oil and bio-diesel. I know that
veggie oil is carbon neutral, but can't the same be said of all
fossile fuels?

It's the difference between sequestered carbon and recent carbon.
Veggie is last years inspired CO2 vs CO2 sequestered millions of
years ago. One changes the balance of the carbon in the atmosphere
today, the other doesn't.

Same with wood, except it's decades vs years compared to millions of
years.


50 year or 5 million years, it does change the balance of CO2
today...

Not to any significant factor when compared to using carbon
sequestered millions of years ago.

Using carbon sequesterd 50 years ago does change the CO2 balance with a
significant factor: which ever way look at it, you're adding it to the
surplus there is already in teh atmospshere today




(do take into account however that using veggie oil is reducing the
life expectancy of your engine).

You are wrong. Veggie has more lubricity, and if heated properly,
less deposits than diesel. Please explain how it hurts diesel
engines? I'm taking straight veggie, not biodiesel. I know of several
diesel engines that have hundreds of thousands of hours burning
veggie. 2 in excess of 700k.


Due to it's viscosity it has a bad influence on the lubrucants and
then there's also the carbon deposits. So, either your engine life is
reduced or your maintenance costs are higher

Actualy,it has greater lubricity at any temp than ULSD or even LSD.

It's the viscosity of the stuff that is at play and it's influnace on
the lubricants, not its' own lubricity


Carbon is not an issue either, as the temps that I use it at make for
the same dispersion pattern as diesel.

I think you are misinformed here.

Veggie oil normally has an higher boiling point than diesel





The main problem with as well veggie oil as bio-diesel (and most
diesl cars in Europe will soon be using a mixture of diesel and
bio-diesel) is availability. There's simply not enough veggie oil
for all cars to drive on and the same goes for bio-diesel. Now
already the first effects of the growth of crops for producing
bio-diesel are felt: your frying oil is becoming more expensive and,
more importantly, farmers are switching from food crops to oil crops
with immediate effects on the price of basic food supplies. For me
it's only a partial solution, which can be further enhanced by using
it in a hybrid car.

I use waste vegetable oil. (what restaurants throw away). They give
it to me instead of throwing it in the garbage. I collect about twice
what I need. I give hundreds of gallons of settled and filtered oil
away every year.


How many million of cars are there driving in the US? Got enough oil
for them all?

Would even a 10% decrease in burnt dinosaurs make a difference?

It's not exactly dinosaurs, but I understand what you mean. And it would
help a little bit, however I don't think that you would get a 10%
decrease


At least it's not the boondoggle that ethanol is.

Something like 96% of all fryer oil is wasted in landfils. Why not use
it for energy?

Of course; I know even restaurants that are now starting to ask money
for it...




The same goes for wood: there's simply not enough wood around for
everyone to use it for heating. Can you imagine the effects of (even
more) massive deforestation? The use of high output heaters using
wood pellets is slowly becoming mainstream over here, but supply
remains a problem when it would know a widespread usage.

I use only storm damaged trees so far. No harvesting. If others want
to harvest, that's their issue. Where I live, there is no shortage of
trees for firewood at this time. my issue is using it before it rots.
(which releases the same amount of carbon into the atmosphere as if
it were burned)


And how many households can be approvisioned with that wood?

Some can. Why not use it? Most people choose not to because they are
unwilling to work that hard. It's so much easier to turn up the
thermostat.

Yet again, why not? But it's not an universal solution




I'm more in favor of using sustainable methods on a large scale and
am know looking at installing a solar boiler at home, which will
immediately have a positive impact on the amount of natural gas we
use. This technology will become even more popular over here, coz
our government is planning to offer tax incentives for it.

My climate doesn't work well with a solar boiler. I'd like to go with
a windmill and resistance heating, but it's expensive.


I'm not exactly living in the tropics myself...but even here on a
cold and cloudy winters day it can heat water up till 30 deg C, which
means that you don't need that much gas anymote toget it to 60 deg C

Really? I have not found one that will work in the temps we encounter
here. At 15 deg F most won't heat water enough to make it worthwhile.
At -20, they lose energy. last time I figured it, it would take 25 or
so years to make it pay for itself. THere is just not enough sun here
in the winter, and in the summer, the house is shaded so I don't have
to air condition it for comfort.

Then it's indeed not a solution for you.




Next to that we're already using rain water for flushing the toilet,
for watering the garden and for cleaning my dive gear.

I'm well and septic, so my real impact is near zero. Only the energy
used to pump it. (and I'm working on a solar solution to that)



You have no impact on the aquifers where you live? What will happen
if everyone starts using wells?

Most use wells. Essentially, the water that comes from the well is
returned via the septic system. The net change is near zero.

In Florida this isn't the case, for instance




Since 4 years you're obliged to install an underground tank of 5000L
when building or renovating a house over here, so the use of
rainwater is becoming widespread.



You see, I'm not only interested in diminishing our carbon footprint
but our complete ecological footprint.

But your impact is still greater at this time.


What I notice is that you're only talking about individual efforts
from your side (and by themselves they are great, no doubt about
that), but there not solutions that can be introduced on a global or
even national scale.That's what I mean by sustainable: useable on a
grand scale and with only positive impact

But it can be used on a global scale, if people choose to.

By how many people? Mind you, it would be great if they did, but it's
nowhere close to an universal solution.





When you eschew those dive vacations because of the carbon cost, and
burn only renewable for transport and heat, and go fully green in the
products you buy and use, then I'll think that you really believe.

Until then, it's just talk.



And then? Grow my own vegetables? Make my own clothes?

If you practice what you preach, then yes.

You see, that's your problem: you only think in extremes.

And nobody is asking for extreme measures to counter gloval warming>
Nobody's asking to stop CO2 emissions for the whole 100%, nobody's
saying that you never should use cars again, etc.



Otherwise you are a hypocrite. I don't say that to be nasty, just
pointing it out.

Only a realist.


Or is it only for other people?

I promote universal, sustainable measures, not individual ones.


To use only renewable would mean that first the electricity has to
come 100% from nuclear plants, eolian sources or perhaps geothermal
or hydro sources and the same goes for all 'green' products...the
energy to produce them has to come from somewhere.

And if you believe what you say you would choose to buy only those
products, despite their higher cost.

And who says that we don't do that already (where they are available as
alternative). Nowadays these products are even already available in
local supermarkets (and at the same time they're fair trade products)
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: OT- Global warming or not
    ... It's the difference between sequestered carbon and recent carbon. ... Veggie has more lubricity, and if heated properly, less deposits than diesel. ... I think Michael is mixing up veggie oil and biodiesel. ...
    (rec.scuba)
  • Re: OT- Global warming or not
    ... your individual carbon footprint is significantly higher than mine. ... I burn vegetable oil for transport about 70% of the year and about ... My barn is heated by veggie as well. ...
    (rec.scuba)
  • Re: OT- Global warming or not
    ... It's the difference between sequestered carbon and recent carbon. ... Veggie has more lubricity, and if heated properly, less deposits than diesel. ... I know of several diesel engines that have hundreds of thousands of hours burning veggie. ... I think Michael is mixing up veggie oil and biodiesel. ...
    (rec.scuba)
  • Re: OT- Global warming or not
    ... It's the difference between sequestered carbon and recent carbon. ... Veggie has more lubricity, and if heated properly, less deposits than diesel. ... I think Michael is mixing up veggie oil and biodiesel. ...
    (rec.scuba)
  • Enchanted Gypsies....on the road
    ... We are running it mostly on waste veggie oil,except for times when we ... the main thing is to heat the oil to the proper ... Under normal circumstances the coolent leaves the engine after ... second fuel tank, the veggie oil in the tank flows toward the engine ...
    (alt.gathering.rainbow)
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