Re: An example of why low PADI standards can be bad

El Mecky wrote

Here in the States, YMCA, NAUI, SSI and TDI seem to have done OK with me.
44 years and still going strong.

Your driving school also did okay with you, 44 years and still going
strong. But with the same logic they do are the worst driving school
arround as they also tought a guy who drove himeself into a pole after a
fierce evening in the local pub.

I didn't have a driving school and, to the best of my knowledge, there are
no schools certifying people as competent to drive. That's done by the
government. Since you brought it up, however, I have to agree. Those
certifying drivers aren't doing a real good job either. Next time I'm
posing on rec.driving, I'll mention that.

Now you say that's the guys fault and not the driving schools?
Extrapolate that thought to diving!

When did you hear me say anything about whose fault it is relative to
driving. In fact, in driving and in diving, there's more than enough blame
to go around. The fact that PADI, or whoever, didn't provide the service
they sold, is their fault, and, in a self regulated industry, ours for
accepting it. Poor training has certainly been a factor in some diving
deaths. That does not mean that there weren't other factors involved.

I had absolutely no confidence in the sole instructor of the NOB course,
so they fell off.

The instructor is always a key factor in training.

The BSAC course was free (the training) except for the membership of the
club. They would start teaching me right away and it
would take about a half year to my first outdoor dive and about a year to
get certified as a 1* diver. I found that quite a long time.
Moreover, if I asked what stuff they would teach me and in what order and
what I could do after that I got very long, unorganised
answers. So I asked how they tested if I knew everything to know and
managed all skills. The explained that I was certified after
my instructor decided that I was suitable for certification. The good
thing about this system is the instructors tend to ask a lot of
their candidates before certifying them, just to be on the safe side. The
bad thing is the system is based on loss of knowledge
(like the belgian driving-license system). We teach one guy 30 things and
over the years he teaches other people who teach others
who... No exams to take or any form of controll to check if all the
necessary has been mentioned. If he forgets something
important or if I do something per accident right without knowing why, I
can still fail (and thus might get injured) afterwards
without ever knowing what I did wrong.

That does not sound like the BSAC that is frequently discussed by my friends
in the UK. I'm given to understand that they, in fact, have standards
considerably more stringent than anything any of the major US agencies have.
I'm sure that there is some poor training by all of the agencies, including
BSAC, but, in my opinion, only one agency makes a point of marketing it.

On the other hand that is also exactly the problem that I have with PADI.
Although their material (books, videos, DVD's, printed
standarised exams etc) are very complete and modular and handle all the
stuff that's needed to know . . .

Where did you find buddy breathing in their curriculum?
What's their requirement for swimming ability?

. . . the time between learning and examining is to short. Before jumping
in the pool they tell you what to do and how to do it.
Then you jump in and do it. If done allright, that station is passed and
that skill is considered managed.

Interesting statement, "considered managed." I don't know about you, but
managed is not a goal I consider appropriate. I prefer mastery of essential
skills. Part that you left out, by the way, is what h appens when the skill
is not done all right the first time. Students that, say, fail to clear
their mask the first three times, getting it on the fourth, are passed on
the skill. The problem is, when you're diving on your own, you don't get
four chances.

That's a bit to fast. especially to fast to feel secure and skilled.

Yep.

Then again, while knowing I've been thought almost all there was to know .
. .

Friend, trust me, you haven't been taught even close to everything there is
to know. Any course that told you otherwise, has exactly the kind of
problem that I am most concerned about.

having all the materials in house (you háve to purchase the books and
videos/dvds), I can resume my experiencing in my own
pase, repractising the skills freely in my own time in the pool with the
club and re-reading my theory in my own time. Kinda like
the way I was taught to drive: manage the car and the traffic rules safely
and carefully, then get my driving permit and start
learning to drive my car with confidense and experience.

In this country, the normal progression is Driver Education at around age
14, followed by testing by an independent government agency who then
licenses (not certifies) you to drive during daylight hours only, under the
direct supervision of an adult licensed driver. At age 16 (is it still
16?), you are allowed to drive at night, still under direct supervision, or
take additional testing, including driving in actual conditions and parking
under simulated conditions. A lot of people fail one or more times before
being licensed. Those that pass, are issued a license (not a certification)
to drive unsupervised for non commercial purposes, but are required to carry
liability insurance before they do. Those that wish to do more advanced
driving, including operating commercial vehicles and, in most cases, racing,
do attend additional training that, in some cases, may certify them as
competent . . . and mistakes are still made.

I don't know about you, but I don't want that level of government
involvement in diving. Divers are not much of a risk to others. If they
screw up, chances are, they're the only one that dies as a result. The one
thing that is as sure as sunrise tomorrow, though, is that the government
will get involved if the industry does not self regulate as promised.
Letting PADI claim that certification only means training was given is not
self regulating as promised.

Thus I was PADI certified. I signed the form, filled it in truthfully, got
my medical checkup, both as required by PADI . . .

Does PADI require a medical checkup in the US these days or do they still
accept a checklist signed by the student?

. . . and started diving in the same conditions as in wich I was taught or
better, as the PADI system and certification require

To the best of my knowledge, there is no such requirement in the States.
Experienced divers on this list have consistently recommended exactly that,
but a C card from any PADI training center is accepted all over the world.

I did get my advanced and nitrox in as soon as possible (nitrox to stay on
the safe side, not to go very deep or very long).

You make me wonder if you got what you paid for from your nitrox course.
Nitrox, as you should know, is not for going very deep.

I have 26 dives now since december (almost every sunday) and start really
managing my buyoncy. Not the required skills, but
really hoovering about 5 centimeters higher or lower if I feel like it,
without giving it any thought. Still practising navigational skills
and most of the time just having fun looking arround and seing what there
is to be found at the bottom. No sea dives yet, just the
local lakes and holes and although certified to 30 metres stayed arround
15-20.

No disrespect intended, but come back after a few hundred more dives and
revisit the issue of how comprehensive the training you received really was
and, when you do, remember that, right now, you've taken two courses more
than most certified divers ever do.

Lee


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