Re: Deadliness in the deep - thank you US Navy

Popeye napisal(a):

> > 1. Poles did not collaborate with the Nazis except for number of
> > individuals without any moral skeleton. Volksdeutsche were either
> > simply not Poles (except for being Polish citzens), or were forced into
> > the lists. E.g. In Gdansk all Poles without being asked were
> > automatically made into Volksdeutsche category.
>
> I have proven both of these to be incorrect.

Both? That is: Poles did collaborate with Germans in a extent more than
individuals and Volksdeutsche were Poles?

You didn't. Or I missed it. Volksdeutch was a nationality category.
Signing Volkslist meant you were considering yourself German, and
therefore, by definition, not Pole. Most of those were either Germans,
or people without clear national identity (or double national identity,
like Slazaks). Or people with German ancestors, who received "proposal"
to sign it, which they cannot refuse.

> > 2. My NATION did not participate in the Holocaust. There were POLES who
> > participated, but those were individuals.
>
> I have -cited- this to be incorrect.

Where? I mean, where you have cited that there were not individuals,
but widespread collaboration by whole nation, or by Polish government?
Do you consider refusing to accept Jewish before 1939 as participating
in Holocaust? Then USA, British etc were participating in Holocaust as
well.

In Jedwabne e.g. the whole crime was done by few dozens of Poles (about
40, from population of both Jedwabne and neighbouring villages, which
numbered probably few thousands. Many of Jews received earlier warnings
from other Poles. In other words, SOME individual Poles participated in
massacre, while VAST MAJORITY either didn't care, was to scared to do
anythign about it, or tried to help the Jews. Would it be correct to
say "population of Jedwabne participated in the massacre?".

I have this feeling we are going in circles.

> > Your statement is as true as "Jewish nation participated in Holocaust",
> > since there also were individuals who collaborated with Nazis, or
> > participated in sending their own compatriots to death camps (check the
> > role of Ghetto police for example). Or "French nation participated in
> > Holocaust" or "X nation participated in Holocaust" and insert any
> > occupied nation of the Europe here.
>
> Which I could, for as the most part they did.
>
> They also had many victims, a brave resistance, many collaborators.
>
> It's a generic recipe for occupation.

Aaah, if you think you can say, then it is semantic difference. Maybe
it's a problem in translation or anything?

I mean, if there would be, say, even 100.000 Poles which would
collaborate with Germans, then from the nation of almost 30 millions
(before the war) it's less than 1%. For me 1% is some individuals, not
the nation, especially if those would be seen by contempt by the
others. I do not deny the sad fact that SOME Poles were collaborating,
and that the number was in thousands; but I do hate the phrase "the
NATION was collaborating". I would say the phrase would be justified if
the MAJORITY or at least close to majority would collaborate (and
collaborate does not mean: being passive or not helping), or if the
official government would collaborate.

PS : this is commenting the other messages in the thread, I decided it
would be tiresome to comment all of them..

NOTE, that quoting that Polish population was anti-semitic is nothing.
Being anti-semite doesn't mean someone participated in Holocaust. Heck,
one of the founder of Zhegota, organisation which helped thousands
Jews, who risk her life every day helping the Jews, was notorious
anti-semite Zofia Kossak-Szczucka.
ps2: In NO OTHER country there was law as harsh as in Poland as for the
help for the Jews. In no other country I know about there was specific
law which was giving death penalty to giving glass of water for the
helping individual and sometimes whole his family. There were
accidental examples I know about for punishing with death individuals
helpers in other countries, I kwno about one for example in Greece; But
normal punishment in Netherland or France for helping the Jews would be
concentration camp for only the person involved, AFAIK. If you know
about specific laws as harsh as in Poland, I would be happy to know
about them, since I am always willing to learn something new.
ps3: majority of Jews which died were not fingered by Polish
collaborators. Majority of Jews decided to listed to German authorities
which forced them into the ghettoes, were specific clothes etc.
ps4: before the war there were no official laws against Jews. There
were some which were particularly important for Jews, but which were
not directed against them (citizenship law, which was mainly directed
against the Germans, was quoted by you here - it was not antisemitic,
though it was anti-German, some may argue; no one has quoted sanitary
measures, which affected also the Jews). There were some unofficial
policies like quotas in some universities, economical boycott
propagated by endecja and unoficial limitation of number of Jews in
some government positions (e.g. the number of Jews in railways was much
lower than their proportion in general population). If someone can
quote some real, official law against the Jews, please do it.

.

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