Re: For new head of Boy Scouts, mentoring is key

Stan wrote:
Graham Holland wrote:
The problem I have is with your statement above. You have yet to
provide one single shred of verifiable evidence to support your
assertion that the BSA's Code of Conduct "includes a recognition that
they are part of the One Nation, under God in whom In God We Trust."

You keep asking me "are we done now?" If you provide this evidence then
yes, we are done and I'll even let you have the last word.

In my Troop, this point came up when I learned that an Eagle
candidate's family had no formal religious affiliation, and our newly
annointed (er. appointed) District Advancement Chair told me what had
to be done (letter from parents "explaining" his belief in God). As
you may know, I have made it clear that I do not approve of any BSA
"verification" of a boy's Duty to God, and I absolutely disapprove of
requiring any extra documentation from unaffiliated boys, so what I
did, with the approval of the Scoutmaster and Troop Committee Chairman,
was to create a totally religion-neutral statement of compliance
defined in terms of these established American principles.

Thank you for your clear and polite explanation. I'm sure you must have
said all this in previous threads but it can be almost impossible (and
very dull) to have to trawl through the forum looking for it,
particularly since I joined the discussion part way through.

I now have a better understanding of your situation, and, to a certain
extent, I sympathise with you. I know many leaders in the Scout
Association who would't feel comfortable or qualified to assess a young
person's duty to God. The statement you have provided for the
unaffiliated boys is not BSA policy, but it helps you, and the young
person, make their advancement.


Unfortunately, a boy joining the BSA aged 6 doesn't know if he's going
to be gay or straight - he doesn't have a choice. If he goes through
puberty and turns out to be straight, then it's not a problem. If,
however, the boy happens to be gay then that's where we have a problem.

Remember though that the BSA exclusion is for "avowed homosexuals",
which means that a person must DO something to be "classified" as a
homosexual. Don't forget that James Dale is an Eagle Scout. (Put it
this way, is looking at another woman adultery?)

I have a number of problems with this rule.

Firstly, it is based on the assertion that being gay is wrong. I know
that many religious groups firmly believe this to be the case, and can
quote scripture and verse in support of this belief. However, this is
not supported by the scientific and medical communities. And,
increasingly, it is not supported by many organisations. There are many
societies and governments around the world which support the rights of
gay and lesbian people to live their lives free from persecution and
prosecution, although there are many which don't.

Secondly, it expects teenagers and young men (and adults) to stay in
the closet and to hide their (homo)sexuality if they want to remain in
Scouting. In my opinion, that is wrong. Scouting, for me, is all about
enabling young people to grow into adults who are better able to take
their place in society and to make an active contribution to it. It's
about unlocking the potential within each child to help them to grow
into mature, well-rounded, responsible human beings. It's about
moulding the citizens of tomorrow. Gay Scouts should be in an
organisation that allows them to feel good about themselves, and not
have to hide their true feelings. It's about giving them the
opportunity to grow to be the real person they are inside, rather than
the false person that other people would prefer them to be.


As I've said, these provide a way, consistent with American values, for
a boy to meet the Duty to God requirement without having to show proof
of attendance at some church, temple, shrine, synagogue, or youth
group, or being pressured to do one of these things to "prove"
compliance.

Agreed.

I feel it also provides a way for BSA units that meet in
public schools to counter any charges of religious discrimination by
showing that they're asking nothing more of the boys than already exist
in our culture.

I've got no problem with the religious/faith element of the membership
criteria. But I do think that it's folly to try to argue that the BSA
accepts all boys, regardless of faith (or lack of) when the inclusion
of "Duty to God" and "Reverent" clearly counters that. Also, by
requiring members to make a promise of Duty to God it clearly marks
itself as an organisation that accepts membership based on a personal
faith, and denies membership to those without a personal faith. However
you may want to look at it, this will always be seen in the eyes of the
law as being discriminatory against those without a faith, and
therefore as being a religious organisation. Didn't the BSA lawyer in
the Dale case actually admit this?

The BSA can't have it's cake and eat it, to coin a phrase. As I've said
before, if it sets a religious membership criteria then it has to be
prepared to be subject to the law regarding state/public support of
religious organisations.


As I've implied, the "standard" that some Scout leaders use, in my
opinion, would impose religion on an unaffiliated boy. Defining it in
terms of the One Nation, under God in whom In God We Trust doesn't.

Are we done now?

You tell me.

Almost, but not quite.

In the post that you replied to here I asked about your choice to call
me a bigot.

By the way it's very easy to call someone a name. I'm not insulted, by
the way - more amused. However, I would appreciate it if you could
provide examples of where in rec.scouting.issues I have *ever* been
bigotted, i.e. intolerant of those who differ, bearing in mind that
simply disagreeing with another point of view is not intolerance."

Do you have any evidence to back up this absurd claim?

Graham

.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Required Adherence to National Values and Discrimination
    ... I've asked repeatedly for any support for this position, ... yourself from the One Nation under God who In God We Trust. ... BSA from doing ...
    (rec.scouting.issues)
  • Endtime Indications - 12/30/07
    ... primary question "What does God say?" ... We must stress the quality of life above the quantity of life. ... who need's my support and encouragement right now. ... Praying the Lord's Prayer, or other prayers, help focus ...
    (alt.gathering.rainbow)
  • Re: Methodological Materialism and Philosophical Materialism
    ... "If God is the creator of life on Earth, then we should find evidence for that in observations of the structure of life." ... "immaterial" soul). ... Well, actually, that has even less scriptural support. ...
    (talk.origins)
  • DN The Joy of Sacrificial Giving 2/7/2008
    ... As you give toward the needs of others, God will supply your needs. ... Paul was selective about accepting financial support from churches ... Thank God for those who faithfully minister to you. ... Drawing Near, Copyright 1993 John F. MacArthur, Jr. ...
    (alt.religion.christian)
  • Re: "Liberty U" -- gotta laugh....
    ... philosophical arguments for the existence of God. ... evidence, are menaingless in terms of trying to prove that any deity ... You keep saying that without offering any support for your claim. ...
    (rec.arts.sf.fandom)