Re: What Happened to Grundig?

You listed the bugs in a previous message, not me. Good grief don't
you read what you post? Plus, I spent enough time at the local SWL
store and talking with guys on CIS and the fidonet boards to realize
there were indeed quality problems with the radio.


Vesa wrote:
Well,

With all due respect I doubt if you have ever seen the schematics of
the two sets or indeed had a look inside them. Having a peek inside it's
really clear that the quality of construction of a ICF2010 is inferior
to that of a Satellit 700. Regarding schematics, to talk about "carbon
copy" could be pushing it a bit but clearly the SAT700 is an attempt to
improve the original Sony design. You really have to see the schematics
yourself to get the point. In my first message I only mentioned some
details quite obvious. (Could start to talk about the dual-loop
synthesizer design on both sets using the same components...)

Regarding how Grundig came to use the Sony design, we can only
speculate. As far as I can remember at the time in question (15-20 years
ago) the now usual OEM/ODM/ref.design sort of business model wasn't that
commonplace.

Anyway claiming that SAT700 quality is inferior to ICF2010 quality is
stretching it a bit. In my opinion credit should be given to both
receivers. For ICF2010 for being progressive in design (in true Sony
tradition) and for SAT700 for it's high quality. At present both sets
are collectible. The Satellit 700 especially for being the last of the
line and Sony for it's revolutionary design (SAM). Regarding the
front-end PIN-diode bug the Satellit 700 still manages a higher dynamic
range than the ICF2010. Correcting the bug only realizes what the design
should have been capable of firstplace. (Responsability of the circuit
seems to have been given to a summer trainee perhaps.)

-Vesa-

John S. wrote:

Vesa wrote:

Hi!

Something I've never seen anybody referring to is the striking
similarity between a Sony ICF2010 and a Grundig Satellit 700. Inside
that is. I personally own samples of both radios and also have the
schematics of both radios.

The Satellit 700 is more or less an upgraded ICF2010 (ICF2001D).
The synthesizer is using the same chips in a similar configuration
(Sony CX7961 and NEC uPC1037 chips two of both). The AM/FM-IF chip is
the same (Sanyo LA1205) as is the synchronous demodulator (Sony CX857).



I would expect that there would be a lot more similarities before one
could say with a straight face the Satellit 700 is an upgraded 2010.
Indeed given the quality problems of the radio I would say it was a
large step in the other direction.


The major differences of a SAT700 compared to ICF2010 are the inclusion
of RDS on FM and the use of switched varactor tuned filters on SW.
Otherwise the receivers look almost identical to an engineers eye.

It seems it would have been very unlikely for Grundig to be able to
source the Sony chips without a mutual agreement on the design ie.
Grundig must have bought the basic design from Sony! In the 60's and
70's the japanese very accused of ripping european and US designs.
Later on it seems that the roles did change a bit!



I suspect that Sony like any other electronics manufacturer is more
than willing to sell components at a price. It takes much more than
components to make a good shortwave radio. It takes attention to
design, details and scrupulous assembly techniques. Grundig fell down
in those categories. Sony on the other hand set the benchmark for a
quality product.


Coming back to changes on the original design Grundig did produce
a few bugs. The first one is quite often referred to as rumbling
synchronous AM. The main reason for this is that Grundig did mess
with the time base of the SAM-PLL. In SAT700 the LP-filter has a
56k resistor and a total of 11nF capasitance. In the ICF2010 the
same components are 10k and 11nF. Correcting the Grundig circuit
to comply with the Sony original does away with most of the rumble.
At it's easiest you just replace the 10nF of "CC817" with a 1nF capasitor.

The second bug is rather serious as well. The varactor tuned SW-
frontend filters are switched with PIN-diodes. In the Grundig
design the diodes of the filter in use have low forward bias.
The diodes of the remaining filters have their cathodes and anodes
at the same voltage ie. they have zero bias. For best intermodulation
performance one would reverse bias the non-conducting diodes. In my set
I reverse biased the diodes and the improvement in large signal handling
was remarkable.

What you need to do is to disconnect the resistors CR228,233,238,239,
245 and 246 from +AM+5V rail and connect them somewhere higher. In my
set I used the +30V tuning voltage generator and by a high impedance
voltage divisor produced +10V that I connected the resistors in to.
This resulted in a few volts of reverse bias for the diodes.
(Actually in the easiest implementation you remove the aforementioned
resistors and add new ones on vias on the PCB near the connector of the
cable going to the CPU-board...)


I could not imagine anyone spending the hundreds of dollars the 700
sold for when new only to have to fix this many serious problems. I
would send that radio back for a full refund. That lack of quality in
a radio at this price level is inexcusable.


-Vesa-



.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: What Happened to Grundig?
    ... Having a peek inside it's really clear that the quality of construction of a ICF2010 is inferior to that of a Satellit 700. ... to talk about "carbon copy" could be pushing it a bit but clearly the SAT700 is an attempt to improve the original Sony design. ... Regarding how Grundig came to use the Sony design, ...
    (rec.radio.shortwave)
  • possible fix of rumble synch satellit 700
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    (rec.radio.shortwave)
  • Re: What Happened to Grundig?
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  • Re: What Happened to Grundig?
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