Re: The Next Step in the CPSC Battle

RecPyroers, here's a little more of the conversation going on about
this important issue,
ned

John, thanks for your clarifications, and also for taking the time to
spend the
last 45 minutes talking with me on the phone and attempting to answer
my
questions and concerns. (Only the first two minutes of that
conversation had me
wondering if I was going to be read the riot act, until I realized
that you had
a well thought out argument that you wanted me to understand ;-)

The biggest problem I think I continue to see with the whole effort is
that
there is a core group of folks who have been discussing this issue
since the
Firefox ruling, have tossed around all the possibilities, approaches,
odds of
success, and have come to some group conclusions concerning where we
go from
here, specifically with the lobbying effort.

On the other hand, the vast majority of us intelligent, creative,
independent,
rugged individualists are now being told of your conclusions and asked
to sign
on and contribute,,,,"and, by the way, for very good reasons, we can't
give you
all the information concerning our strategies so that we can implement
them when
the time comes..." Oh, man, what a setup for questions, skepticism,
debate, etc.
That's a problem, but not one that anyone is to blame for,,,just the
nature of
things.

I don't apologize for asking my questions, and in the long run I hope
they and
your many attempts at answers, have served a positive purpose.

But, having talked with you John, having my questions addressed by
you, Tom,
Dave, Bill, and others, mostly through informative posts to the lists,
as as
much of the 'game plan' as possible is shared with the 'community', I
think I
have as much info as I can for now, and it's up to me to make a
decision.

I can sit back with my license and 20 years of pyro experiences and
successes
and failures, and figure the future will take care of itself,,,Heck, I
have
enough potassium nitrate for now and can make my own charcoal....

Or, I can imagine the ned of 20 years ago who wanted to learn how to
make
fireworks, and wanted to buy a pound of nitrate, and of
charcoal,,,,and maybe
some Ti to toss in there.....Do I want him to be able to get into this
art in a
year or two? Do I want a Firefox or Skylighter to be there for him?

The argument that many folks want to be able to purchase chems and
take them to
club events and make stuff, not needing a license for any of that, is
very
pursuasive.

Is there a Federal agency with a target on hobbyist and consumer
fireworks?
Looks like a good bet.

Do I love the idea of enlisting lobbyists and Congressfolks on our
side,,,not
completely, but having heard a bit about your and Tom's efforts in
Washington,
maybe that's the best shot at really affecting the protection we need.
After
all, We Are Not the Frickin' Enemy.

You've now addressed my question about alternative payment methods
besides
monthly credit card charges.

The last question I have is, "Do I trust John and Tom and Bill and the
others to
have my/our best interests at heart?" Has anyone else spent hours and
days
trudging the 'Hill' on our behalf? Does anyone else know better than
they do?

And, can I afford 120 bucks this year to maybe help save the artform I
love so
much? Yep. So, why the hell not. It'll be in the mail tomorrow. At
least I can
be in there with those who say, hell, we gave it our best shot.

To everyone, John has said that he'll accept phone calls, preferably
after the
4th, from any seriously interested person who has questions/doubts
that they'd
like addressed. His phone number is in the PGI bulletin.

To everyone, Happy 4th,,,,Independence Day,
Stay safe and Green,
ned

---- Jrsrocket@xxxxxxx wrote:
This message was written by: PGI

In a message dated 6/22/2007 12:47:52 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, Ned Gorski
writes:
For starters, What is the problem?
It's been implied in letters from both Tom and John that Firefox was out of
line in certain cases and deserved what they got. I find this hard to
believe, having read the government's complaint against them, but maybe I
don't know
the whole story. I do know that I've never met more supportive and friendly
folks than Gary and Diane.

But, if Firefox was guilty and got what they deserved, what is the current
threat looming against all of us. I think it'd be an excellent idea to
clarify
this most logical of foundations for this discussion. What exactly is the
problem, if Skylighter and others have not engaged in the same practices that
Firefox has been supposedly found guilty of, and which our leadership has
said
they deserved to be slapped on the wrist for?

If there is some threat against 'hobby pyro', what does this include? In
some messages, a threat against all display pyro is being mentioned. Are we
discussing the future of the hobbyist pyro, or of all fireworks? What are the
various threats against the various facets of pyro? How many 'legal' hobbyist
pyros are there, anyway. It took many of us years and years, and the threats
of
serious legal ramifications before we got licensed. Is there really a way
to protect the many 'back yard pyros'? Are we really gonna get Washington on
their side?

Is some sort of lobbying in Washington going to produce a solution? Man, the
answer to this one better be a good one, because just mentioning Credit Card
Companies, Lobbyists, Lawyers, and Congressmen in one sentence makes me
wanna puke. If we're gonna get some lawyer educated in the ways of pyro and
our
causes, what is he/she going to say to some bureaucrat to actually get them
on
our side? What do we want them to lobby for?

Is there some way to fund all of this other than putting it on a never
ending cycle of credit card charges? I avoid payments other than ones I
actually
sign a check for. Can the membership be presented with payment options?

Ned:
1) FireFox may have been guilty of some violations. We think the CPSC
response is overboard and unfounded. Please read our reports and the order.
2) We have good reason to believe that further CPSC actions are imminent.
There is no way they want hobbyist fireworks to continue.
3) No result can be guaranteed if we act. You should know better.
4) If I thought there were a better way, I would take it.
5) You are lucky: you have a license. Many of us can't get one because local
ordnances preclude this and are limited to participating in club activities.
6) I am incredulous at your post, knowing that you are aware of some of the
ramifications of this order. Anyone care to attend Winter Blast with NO
chemical vendor? I am not going to travel across the country if I can't
manufacture for lack of chemicals when I get there. As you are well aware, at
present,
we have ONE vendor of chemicals attending the PGI convention and that vendor
is limited to less than 1000 pounds of material.
So, should we continue to debate until we are certain we have a time-limited
(as opposed to open ended) plan that guarantees success, or should we act,
act decisively, and act now?
Well, that's the question we put to the community, isn't it?
Do you trust us to act as your representatives and will you help us follow
the plan for action we have laid out, or, shall we debate this to death
without action?
Perhaps after we attend a few conventions where only ATF licensees who can
drive have supplies, we'll decide to act.
Perhaps there will even be one or two chemical vendors left to defend at
that time.
Ned, I am amazed by your post. Simply stunned.
John Steinberg



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