Re: SCWC 32: Discussion: IMPLEMENT

On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 21:20:29 GMT, Steve Ball
<steveb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Angus Rodgers:

On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 07:47:20 GMT, Steve Ball
<steveb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

[...] "I" doesn't mean "me" in any
legitimate English usage I can think of.

That's syntax; semantically, they have the same referent.

Is that the same as "the same meaning"?

I'm not a punning linguist, either, so I don't know what
technical terms a linguist would use - perhaps "denotation"
would be one? - but I imagine (s)he would say something to
the effect that "meaning" involves more than reference, and
that not all elements of language even /have/ a reference.

But I don't mean anything complicated enough to require
adjudication by a professional linguist. When the word
"I" points to someone, then the word "me" points to the
same person, and vice versa: that's all.

The critical test is that, at least
*somewhere*, one is interchangeable with the other.

That would probably be a test for full equivalence of
"meaning", but it's not required for two terms to have
the same "referent", in my loose, informal (but still
surely clear enough) sense.

[...] a clue (with occasional
exceptions) has two readings: an obvious 'surface' reading in which words
have their usual meanings, and a devious 'cryptic' reading, in which things
are to be taken 'literally' - so "the first of January" is no longer New
Year's Day, or Monday, but the letter J, and "upset" has nothing to do with
your spouse's infidelity, but means "anagrammed". The rules of grammar must
apply in both readings.

(snip)

14D Disagreement in which I'd be a protestor (9)

The solution is DISS(ID)ENT. But there is no way in
which you can read the clue so that it puts "I'd" into
anything. The form of words it uses could put "I" or
(in my opinion!) "ME" into something - with the "'d"
being part of the indicator of what to do with the
word - but to put "I'd" inside another word, it would
have to read "I'd is", or something nonsensical like
that; so it needs a complete rewrite.

Here I agree completely. It's what I think of as 'cheating': the rules of
grammar are violated in the cryptic reading to make the surface work.

And I agree with you, in that the problem with /this/ clue
does seem to be one of grammar. But I also disagree with
you, in that you keep insisting that the problem with the
other clue is also one of grammar - whereas surely it is
one of semantics.

It's not /ungrammatical/ to write something like "I am in
...." and expect the solver to put "ME" into another word,
as a result of your cryptic instructions; rather, it's a
question of how your (grammatically well-formed) cryptic
indications are to be /interpreted/.

You seem to be demanding that one particular convention
for interpreting cryptic indications be followed - and to
be muddying the waters slightly by calling this "grammar".

There /are/ grammatical problems with the original clue,
such as the misleading punctuation in "I'm in! ...", but
these are independent of the question of whether "I" can
or cannot be interpreted as "ME".

(It's a pity I can't see the crossword that follows the
conventions you approve of, because I'd like to get a
feel for how they work in practice.)

--
Angus Rodgers
(twirlip@ eats spam; reply to angusrod@)
Contains mild peril
.

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