Re: [OT]: OS as religions (was: Raw Convertors)

Chris H <chris@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
In message <5lial6-pof.ln1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, Wolfgang
Chris H <chris@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
In message <33ntk6-m43.ln1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, Wolfgang
Chris H <chris@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

For the rest of us: neither the web, nor usenet, nor email, nor
zip is owned, dominated, controlled or invented by Microsoft,

Quite true. In fact their attempts to do that (playing catch-up when
Bill had a revelation and wrote a book explaining how rally was MS who
saw the vision of the Internet :-)

You mean 'took months to revise the just released "The Road
Ahead"', as it finally dawned to them that MSN wasn't ever going
to be a real competition to the Internet.

it's not in a "Microsoft format".

True.

That's the reason you see new
websites and lots of innovation out there.

It is not the main or even major reason why.

Please point out one area controlled or dominated by MS where we
see innovation as fast as the Web has shown us, from invention
(March 1989, based on older concepts) to public release (May
17th 1991 --- with an alpha quality simple line mode browser!) to
killer app (getting everyone and their dog onto the internet) to
new economy to dotcom bubble (peak: March 2000) in, what, 11 years?

Actually the main reason
for Internet advances was the porn industry. This started, or at least
got other people to build, on line billing streaming media and many
other things.

The Internet is not streaming media and steamy pictures, in fact,
streaming media very often needs broadband and where was broadband
in 2000 for the general public?

If the web was Microsoft's idea, it'd be coming on a CD or two,
be updated every other year
[snip reply]
and wouldn't have, need nor understand
a network connection. It wouldn't work on your mobile phone or
eee pc either -

As it happens windows does run on mobile phones

Windows CE does. WinCE (is the name program?) isn't Windows.
It doesn't run Windows programs, it uses a different kernel, it
differs vastly in capability, depending on the OEMs decisions
--- down to the point that "Windows Mobile for PocketPC" and
"Windows Mobile for Smartphones", both of them WinCE variants,
often don't run each other's programs.

Further, often programs with versions for Windows and "Windows
Mobile for xxx" aren't fully compatible with each other ---
MS ActiveSync actually changes data while syncing, especially
ROM-based Word Mobile and Excel Mobile suffer losses compared to
their desktop versions.

I humbly submit WinCE isn't Windows.
I humbly submit WinCE cannot replace Windows.
I humbly submit WinCE synchronization is very suboptimal.


However, that's not the point. Please read my text you quoted ---
I am talking about the *WWW*.

-- and not only because they don't usually have
CDrom-drives.

SO how come so many phones and EEE books run Windows (and make a virtue
of it?)

That's not the point. Please read my text you quoted --- I am
talking about the *WWW*.

Ordering would be via telephone and email
would at best be CDrom's sent via snail mail.

I don't know about that both my PC's and MACS update on line... One
update for the Mac was 768 Mbytes!!!! I had to do 3 Macs last night took
about 2 hours!

That's not the point. Please read my text you quoted --- I am
talking about the *WWW*.

Exactly.. Which is how I got by G4 PowerBook... looked good in the shop
but they could not load their friends (PC) software... so I got it for a
very good price.

If people didn't manage to google "run windows on a G4 PowerBook",
preferably before buying said device ...

That whole 'pirate' (note: pirates == see coast of Somalia)
problem would be reduced to near negible amounts with libre
software,

The same applies to shop lifters and thieves of all kinds. SO the shops
should have everything for free...?

Yes, of course, as soon as the cost for duplicating physical
items is as low as the cost for duplicating data.

as helping your neighbours and friends (not only a
christian duty!) is allowed, nay, encouraged and cherished there.

I always thought Christians were a bunch of thieving bastards.

May I ask what that philosophy/religion you adhere to that says
"snub your neighbours" and "don't dare to help your friends"?

In the meantime, you can dualboot to windows

Sorry that is not something 95% of computer users understand.

Then 95% of computer users need either a 3 minute education
or to pack up their system and send it back 'cause they're
too stupid for a computer.

or just buy a computer
for gaming, where it doesn't matter if some wild program, trojan
or virus scrambles, damages or deletes all the data.

Ouch... To most gamers their gaming PC is MORE valuable than.... well
anything really... they are a sad religious bunch... like Linux users.

So that's the reason: you're a closet Linux user.


As I said, dream reality.

And that is all they need....

They should buy a Dreamcast then.


In the mean real world, another, uh, feature of MS comes home to
roost and they have to scramble to get yet another patch out of
their door, as even MS feels[1] cannot even wait for their own
patch day.

It is the same with PC's Mac's and Linux.

Neither Mac OS nor Linux is layered with bandaid
compatibility layers over bandaid compatibility layers.

Neither Mac OS nor Linux is designed to run anything,
anytime, anyhow, if it's not running away screaming.

Neiter Mac OS nor Linux is designed to drop their
metaphorical trousers, bend over and yell "come and get it,
boys".

Except that at any day your
version of Linux could become unsupported and obsolete.

Except that the very same happens at Microsoft.
Or are you telling me there are all versions of Windows are still
supported? And are you telling me new versions of Windows don't
obsolete older ones?

And the patches are not automatic.

They are not?
Well, if you don't want them, then they are not.

And they are for the whole system, not just the OS.

And they don't require a reboot the same way Windows does.
Even for most kernel patches (see ksplice).


BTW there are as many if not more holes and problems in the various
Linux as windows.

Prove it.

In the mean real world, users of Windows everywhere shake their
heads and accept yet another "interesting" behaviour.

No they don't At least not in the many places I have worked.

They don't even have the energy to shake their heads any
more? It's even worse then.


In the mean real world, evil scammers use hapless Windows users
--- and don't you dare tell me they better upgrade their Windows
and all applications and AV software every day or even week[2],
it's not a hobby for them! --- to fatten their own pockets and
spammers hammer the email networks from whole networks of zombie
Windows machines.

Only because Windows is the biggest target. If Linux ever got over 20%
of the users it too would have spamers worms and viruses.

Your "argument" boils down to "The biggest target is used by
scammers and has virus and worm problems --- just as bad as
Windows is and has --- REGARDLESS OF HOW HARD IT IS TO CREATE
AND USE SUCH MALWARE". This is prima facie absurd.
Proof:
Thought experiment:
Let X be a machine that, by whatever means (e.g. full
sentinence) it is impossible to create viruses and
worms for.
Let X have a market share exceeding 99.9%.

According to your argument, there would be viruses and
worms en masse, which contradicts the assumptions,
therefore your argument is logically incorrect.
Q.E.D.

Before you bother to reply to that, prove your claim first.

Obviously it is not irrelevant how hardened a target is against
malware, and obviously things like "run everything that comes
into the mailbox and is previewed" and similar "user-friendly"
defaults are anti-hardening.

Now, Linux is a big, probably the biggest target in the server
market today ... and a compromized server can serve malware
in webpages and downloads to many many people, so it's a juicy
target ... how comes it's not under constant, *successful* attacks?

In the mean real world, Microsoft users sigh as the computer
again does not do what they want;

No. That is the same for all computer users. The OS is not a significant
feature here.

The philosophy does matter, and you'll admit that Windows follows
different tenets than an OS steeped in UNIX tradition.

Just as an example, please compare typical man pages to the "help"
available on typical Windows programs.

BTW I don't think you have any real idea of the "real world"

Certainly not one where Windows has long been beatified and is
considered for canonization.

I have worked with SW Engineers in 6 countries on three continents
over several decades

Then you probably are a professional "with-SW-Enineers-worker".
Fine.
That doesn't mean you're a "SW Engineer" (however you want
that term understood), nor does it give you any special insight
regarding the 'real world', Windows, security, etc. etc. etc.

I've been working with check-out operatives all my live (whenever
I bought something from a store), does that make me competent to
judge POS software?

and you seem to have a very narrow and religious view that does
not fit reality.

Just because my view happens to differ from yours and I have
outspoken opinions you describe it as "very narrow and religious"
and "does not fit reality".

You know, that strikes me as a very good description of *you*,
but I've long learned that denigrating other people's viewpoints
and calling names doesn't *really* persuade them.

It may be crap, it may be proprietary BUT it does what they want.

Nope. It is proprietary and crap, BUT they have been indoctrinated
that changing to anything else is *hard* ("only experts can
install Linux", etc),

The "indoctrination" comes from the many normal not technical users who
have attempted to install Linux and had problems. The Average computer
user just about copes with installing windows.

Sure. Installing Windows is a piece of cake, everyone does it.

The majority do have
problems attempting Liunx and help is hard to find.

Please prove these 2 claims.

Yes, reading is a required skill when installing Linux.
I remember my first Linux installation, back when there was no
Internet outside huge companies and universities, no broadband
(28.8k modems were the fastest you could get) no Google nor
Altavista, no Knoppix, etc.

I took my time installing it instead of rushing in headless,
reading the relevant parts of the manual (book) --- and had
no problems.
Anyone who wanted to install Linux and was able to read and follow
instructions could do it back then, and it's become vastly easier
each year. A ten year old child can do it.

Installing Linux becomes only a problem with very specific
'Windows only' hardware, and Linux even works with some of that.

"Everyone " can help with windows ... only the "wierdos" who are few and
far between can help with linux. At least that is how the majority see
it.

Sure, and they're too stupid to enter 'Linux' and their town
or the next larger city into google. It's hard to not find
local help for Linux if you look for it, both by finding other,
knowledgeable users and professional paid help. And if that
fails, there's always the Internet ready to help, if you
follow basic steps like in
http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

Why do you think most people use P&S and Camera phones when DSLR's are
technically far better?

Trouser pockets.

that they won't be able to open their
Excel-sheets and Word-files, expecially the ones with the macros,

That is true.... The open soure versions are not 100% compatible
withthe (obscure and moving ) MS formats.

| Never did I imagine when writing the original macros that Microsoft's
| unique blend of incompetence and contempt for their customers'
| investment would cause those macros (like virtually every other Excel
| macro package all around the world, except for the most trivial) to
| break on almost every successive release of Excel, all along the
| tedious, tear-drenched trudge from Excel 2.1 to Excel 2000;
[...]
| Today, Microsoft provides little or no documentation of or support for
| the original macro language in current releases of Excel.
http://www.fourmilab.ch/hackdiet/palm/


So they tolerate intolerable abuse because that's the only
option that they see.

It;s not abuse... it is good enough

So was the old USSR, only a few people fled.

and technically as good as Linux.

Eaten a comedian for breakfast, have we?

Note that I said "the public perception". As in religion,
the public perception of Linux is well removed from reality.

But not very far removed.

What are your Linux credentials?

Well, that must be the most uninformed answer in the whole thread.
I asked "How would you know that another system would not be
compatible with their friends" and *that* answer ... are you a
telemarketer in training?

Now you are being stupid. Grow up.

Answer the question.
How would you know that another system would not be compatible
with their friends?


It is not about which is "better" but which will have market share. For
many reasons Linux will not get that market share.

It's about "How would you know that another system would not be
compatible with their friends", dear paid MS speaker.

I am not and never have been paid by MS. I am not in their market we do
safety critical embedded systems.

In other words, your profession does not lend you any
insights into Linux market share qualities.


Of course Linux already *has* market share MS would never come
close to.

!!!!! Please stick to reality.

I am. Please *try* and read *in* *context*.

based on this report, windows 88%, mac 10%, linux 1%:
<http://apple20.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2009/02/01/apple-starts-2009-with
strong-net-gains/>

That URL is broken. You're missing an '-'.
And as you *should* know, without detailed information how the
data was gathered and weighted, it's pretty much worthless.

Oh, does it matter if many Linux users represent their browsers
as Windows browser because some stupid websites try to be overly
clever?

Look at the top 10 or top 20 of the supercomputers and
check what systems they run ... just as an example. I also doubt
you'll find Windows in your DSL modem/router, but very often you
find Linux there.

Not for much longer.. That was a short lived affair. As I mentioned not
only have I worked in Digital comms (both design and implementation) I
am and have been in the safety critical and high reliabity embedded
market

Yes, DSL routers and Super computers are part of the "safety
critical and high reliabity embedded market".

You should quit your day job and play at Wall Street, the way
you can predict the future you'll make a killing.

and works.
For some values of "work".
For all that mater to them
Sure, and noone ever grumbles about Windows.
Of course they do. And the current government and taxes and the weather.

Only you claim that Windows is perfect:

I have NEVER claimed that.

You have implied it at about every occasion.

"the vast majority of MS
users are completely happy with the Sw [Microsoft Windows]".

That is correct. It does nto mean MS is good, let alone perfect.

It is correct that you claimed that. Of course the claim is
ridiculous.

Of course, never having used something
else in earnest,
I have..
So you say.

Many OS over 30 years from SIL3 systems downwards.
So you say.

You mean you have no idea what I am talking about... though not :-0

Name any SIL3 desktop operation system you regularly use(d).
Name any SIL2 desktop operation system you regularly use(d).

Tell us why these OS are of any relevance on the desktop.
Or of any relevance in smartphones and DSL routers.

See, I have a very good idea you're playing coy.

Of course not. You can't get SIL rated versions of Windows or Linux.

... that all SIL levels have about nothing to with desktop
computers.

But you mentioned linux in embedded systems further up....

Yep, Linux lives in supercomputers and in smartphones and DSL
routers. Which are, as you well know, very very critical, all
must be rated to some SIL-twenty-digits standard.

I also doubt
you'll find Windows in your DSL modem/router, but very often you
find Linux there.

So it is relevant,.

.... that Windows is not flexible enough.

And of course, no *system* --- as in "operating system" ---
can be SIL3 (or any SIL).
:-)
Yes they can and TuV Sud would disagree with you,

That's "TÜV Süd". Or, if you must, "TUeV Sued". Spelling
matters.
http://www.sciopta.com/products/safetykrn.html
Not two weeks ago, and, as SCIOPTA themself says: "it has been
certified to be used with the IAR Systems ARM C Compiler, Assembler
and Linker" --- and I bet there are some more restrictions in
the certification document itself.

You clearly don't understand high integrity software.

You could enlighten me. You choose not to. You choose to
imply it's necessary for DSL routers for SOHO applications.

I'm quite sure that reading the actual, complete certification
will be edifying, but I cannot find it.

I still doubt the OS is SIL3,

OK so Tuv does not know what it is doing...

Are you trying to show off your language skills by mistyping
TÜV in ever new misspellings? You really have no idea what
TÜV stands for, right?

and you do. So now we know how far out of reality you are.

Oh, so now you're down to selective quoting and quote mardering?
You cannot even demonstrate you know any better?

-Wolfgang
.

Loading