Re: [OT]: OS as religions (was: Raw Convertors)

Chris H <chris@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
In message <33ntk6-m43.ln1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, Wolfgang
Chris H <chris@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

No their data is in the universal format... Microsoft.

Pray tell, do you have to work hard to appear completely
incompetent, absolutely uninformed and stupid as batshit, or does
it come naturally?

Since the vast majority of people who use computer are just that "users"
in the same way 90% of car owners never look under the hood

.... and can only drive to their *manufacturer's* garage for repairs ...

as far as
they are concerned the whole world is "Microsoft" in their offices they
never come into contact with anything else. Even the the Mac users use
MS Office.

Ah, you're getting paid by that monopoly Microsoft. Please excuse
me doubting you, I shall assume the worst from now on.
Getting paid for it certainly is an excuse for playing stupid.

For the rest of us: neither the web, nor usenet, nor email, nor
zip is owned, dominated, controlled or invented by Microsoft,
it's not in a "Microsoft format". That's the reason you see new
websites and lots of innovation out there.

If the web was Microsoft's idea, it'd be coming on a CD or two,
be updated every other year and wouldn't have, need nor understand
a network connection. It wouldn't work on your mobile phone or
eee pc either --- and not only because they don't usually have
CDrom-drives. Ordering would be via telephone and email
would at best be CDrom's sent via snail mail.

- because they already spent thousands of pounds for software.
Not always... in fact usually not.
In fact they usually do.

For home users most of it is either pre installed or free (as in
pirated)They do spend lots of money on games...

For example. They also buy --- or copy illegally --- some
office software, which usually means MS-Office, as that's all
they hear about.

That whole 'pirate' (note: pirates == see coast of Somalia)
problem would be reduced to near negible amounts with libre
software, as helping your neighbours and friends (not only a
christian duty!) is allowed, nay, encouraged and cherished there.

tell me when is GTA
coming out on Linux or any of the "big" games? I can gine sections
inthe shop for PC, XBox, PS3 etc but Linux?

If you want games for Linux, you have to buy games for Linux,
else it's a chicken and egg problem. But then gaming seems
to drift to consoles anyway.

In the meantime, you can dualboot to windows or just buy a computer
for gaming, where it doesn't matter if some wild program, trojan
or virus scrambles, damages or deletes all the data.

- because they *think* their needs cannot be filled with
another operating system.

No... Because they don't care if there are other systems out there the
one they have works and does what they need...

... ans then the dream ends and reality kicks in.

What reality that the vast majority of MS users are completely happy
with the Sw that was installed on the PC when they bought it?

Yes, that's dream reality.

It does
exactly what they want it to do, it is the same as their friends
computer and the ones in the office.

As I said, dream reality.

In the mean real world, another, uh, feature of MS comes home to
roost and they have to scramble to get yet another patch out of
their door, as even MS feels[1] cannot even wait for their own
patch day.

In the mean real world, users of Windows everywhere shake their
heads and accept yet another "interesting" behaviour.

In the mean real world, evil scammers use hapless Windows users
--- and don't you dare tell me they better upgrade their Windows
and all applications and AV software every day or even week[2],
it's not a hobby for them! --- to fatten their own pockets and
spammers hammer the email networks from whole networks of zombie
Windows machines.

In the mean real world, Microsoft users sigh as the computer
again does not do what they want; either because the desktop
'leitmotif' of the, well, "desktop" doesn't lend itself to what
really happens or because the attemted novice friendlyness gets
in the way of observing what really happens under the hood, so
users cannot test their assumptions how the machine really works.

In the mean real world, some troll proposes that a single user,
nay, users, nay, many users, even millions and untold millions
of users --- could ever be */completely/* *happy* about software.

It may be crap, it may be proprietary BUT it does what they want.

Nope. It is proprietary and crap, BUT they have been indoctrinated
that changing to anything else is *hard* ("only experts can
install Linux", etc), that they won't be able to open their
Excel-sheets and Word-files, expecially the ones with the macros,
and that they won't be able to communicate with all their
friend any more. And the games won't run.

So they tolerate intolerable abuse because that's the only
option that they see.

It is
there with no effort and it is compatible with all their friends.

Like religion.
Try, uh, let's say "what the public perception of satanism is"[3]
as religion and see how much effort and incompatibility that
can generate.

Note that I said "the public perception". As in religion,
the public perception of Linux is well removed from reality.

Why spend time and money
changing to a system that is not compatible with their friends?

How would you know that another system would not be compatible with
their friends

Because their friends bought a Dell PC like they did, or from PC world
or any one of the other high street PC sellers.
So only Dell PCs (and maybe PCs from other high street PC sellers)
are compatible to Dell PCs?

[further bla bla]

Well, that must be the most uninformed answer in the whole thread.
I asked "How would you know that another system would not be
compatible with their friends" and *that* answer ... are you a
telemarketer in training?

It is not about which is "better" but which will have market share. For
many reasons Linux will not get that market share.

It's about "How would you know that another system would not be
compatible with their friends", dear paid MS speaker.

Of course Linux already *has* market share MS would never come
close to. Look at the top 10 or top 20 of the supercomputers and
check what systems they run ... just as an example. I also doubt
you'll find Windows in your DSL modem/router, but very often you
find Linux there.

and works.
For some values of "work".
For all that mater to them
Sure, and noone ever grumbles about Windows.
Of course they do. And the current government and taxes and the weather.

Only you claim that Windows is perfect: "the vast majority of MS
users are completely happy with the Sw [Microsoft Windows]".
Not even the government claims it's perfect, much less taxes
or the weather.

And noone ever wants a faster, less buggy version.
Of course they do so they fit more ram faster disks etc

Yep, that's (attempting to) cure the symptoms, not the illness.
Of course, you cannot cure the illness, you don't have the code
and MS has no wish to cure them. (Near-)Monopolies rarely do
what consumers want, and MS with their "universal" MS-format
is one of the worse offenders.

And Windows is essentially bug free: "There are no bugs in
any Microsoft software that the majority of users want fixed"
(Bill Gates)

No software is ever bug free but Windows is at least better tested than

You mean: Used by more people. Sure is, at least in desktops.
Of course, Microsoft Betatesting is just releasing the product
to the general public and their finished, tested product is then
SP1 or SP3.

It's also not the easiest thing in the world to report a bug
to Microsoft:
whereas I can trivially file one with e.g. the reportbug utility.
Now tell me, who's going to report bugs, he who has to jump through
tons of hoops, maybe even paying for it, in addition to writing the
bug report, or he who's hardest part is *writing* said bug report?

And that's just about the core facilities of Windows --- I
can use the very same reportbug for 99.9% of the programs on
my machine and expect it to work --- and yes, it tells me
when that's not the case.

Oh, does MS have a public bug tracker I can query or even just
use to follow my bug? Does said bugtracker mention work
arounds just by me looking at it?

Of course, never having used something
else in earnest,
I have..
So you say.

Many OS over 30 years from SIL3 systems downwards.

So you say.

Many systems including SIL3 Safety critical

Typical things that need a SIL are emergency cutouts or overheating

You have an extremely limited knowledge.

Enough to know ...

Of course not. You can't get SIL rated versions of Windows or Linux.

.... that all SIL levels have about nothing to with desktop

And of course, no *system* --- as in "operating system" ---
can be SIL3 (or any SIL).

Yes they can and TuV Sud would disagree with you,

That's "TÜV Süd". Or, if you must, "TUeV Sued". Spelling

Not two weeks ago, and, as SCIOPTA themself says: "it has been
certified to be used with the IAR Systems ARM C Compiler, Assembler
and Linker" --- and I bet there are some more restrictions in
the certification document itself. I still doubt the OS is SIL3,
it's merely pre-certified so users know that that part of their
system isn't going to make trouble or require some additional
coding around for a SIL3 certification.

Just like cars are certified by the TÜV *with certain tires*.
Amongst these you may switch freely, but if you want some other
wheels you need a new road safety certificate.

After all, changes to the OS "may be outside of control by
the user". Which certainly is true with Windows.

Interestingly I have just had a phone conversation with the R&D dept of
a well know silicon company who are developing some ASICs and they said
where 2 years ago 90% of their customers had moved to Linux now less
than half use Linux. The swing is away from Linux and this is amongst
technical people. Unfortunately this was in passing so I don't know why
they moved back. I will find out when I next talk to them.

Typical prejudice ... "why they moved *back*"!. How about they
moved *forward* or *sideways* or *up*, maybe to BSD?

They moved "back" to the systems they used before.

All of them?

Non-linux systems. I did not specify that they were MS Windows.

You don't need to.

Of course, that customers of one company with a specific product
do move 'back' --- which is usually a management decision, not
a technical decision anyway! --- is proof enough for you that
the swing is away from Linux. You're welcome to your beliefs,
you may need them.


[1] and MS is pretty well hardened and feels no pain!
[2] And most of that is manually going to the website, finding
the update, downloading it and manually installing it!
Boring, buggy, inefficient!

Some, like AV software, Firefox and it's plugins, Windows OS,
all have their very own routines to deal with the problem,
all mutually incompatible to each other, all with
different bugs and problems ...

I'd really prefer if there were just one place where an update
program would just have to connect to, find all new versions,
download and install them --- and maybe you could just get
other cool programs from there as well. Now, if that archive
was also well maintained and guarded against errors ...
and the update programs could run in the background, if
one wanted them to ...

That will never ever happen in the Windows world --- too many
cooks, too few waiters, but it does describe what I use right
now and have used for many years.

[3] Which, I understand, is more distorted than a fisheye view.