Re: TSA restricts lithium batteries on airplanes

On 13 Jan 2008 11:42:41 GMT, Chris Malcolm <cam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote
in <5uubphF1jpec4U2@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:

John Navas <spamfilter1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On 13 Jan 2008 03:35:11 GMT, Chris Malcolm <cam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote
in <5utf7fF1jsuqfU3@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:

John Navas <spamfilter1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On 12 Jan 2008 12:23:51 GMT, Chris Malcolm <cam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote
in <5urpqnF1jcqbvU2@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:

Robert Sneddon <fred@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Lithium is a very reactive material in the same class as sodium and
potassium. Once it starts burning, water or CO2 will not necessarily
extinguish the combustion.

Of course, but is there raw elemental lithium in those batteries which
can burn like that? Or is it safelly bound up in a chemical compound
such as sodium is in the sodium chloride of table salt, which is not a
fire hazard of any kind.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_ion>:

Lithium-ion batteries can rupture, ignite, or explode when exposed to
high temperature environments, for example in an area that is prone
to prolonged direct sunlight.[39] SHORT-CIRCUITING A LI-ION BATTERY
CAN CAUSE IT TO IGNITE OR EXPLODE, and as such, any attempt to open
or modify a Li-ion battery's casing or circuitry is dangerous. Li-ion
batteries contain safety devices that protect the cells inside from
abuse, and, if damaged, can cause the battery to ignite or explode.

Contaminants inside the cells can defeat these safety devices. For
example, the mid-2006 recall of approximately 10 million Sony
batteries used in Dell, Sony, Apple, Lenovo/IBM, Panasonic, Toshiba,
Hitachi, Fujitsu and Sharp laptops was stated to be as a consequence
of internal contamination with metal particles. UNDER SOME
CIRCUMSTANCES, THESE CAN PIERCE THE SEPARATOR, CAUSING THE CELL TO
SHORT, RAPIDLY CONVERTING ALL OF THE ENERGY IN THE CELL TO HEAT
RESULTING IN AN EXOTHERMIC OXIDIZING REACTION, INCREASING THE
TEMPERATURE TO A FEW HUNDRED DEGREES CELSIUS IN A FRACTION OF A
SECOND.[40] THIS CAUSES THE NEIGHBORING CELLS TO HEAT UP, CAUSING A
CHAIN THERMAL REACTION.

[emphasis added]

What worries me is that many of our politicians, lawyers, and other
professionals engaged in making up safety regulations don't actually
know the difference between a chemical element and a chemical
compound.

This is a real hazard. Manufacturers otherwise wouldn't be spending
hundreds of millions of dollars to recall and replace them,

So the batteries with dangerous elemental lithium in them aren't a
fire hazard, and the ones without elemental lithium are the fire
hazard. Which was as I suspected: the dangerous nature of elemental
lithium has nothing to do with the case.

That's not what it says.

It explains the fire hazard of lithium-ion batteries quite correctly,
which has nothing to do with the inflammatory properties of the metal
lithium. My point was simply that those who "explain" the fire hazard
of lithium-ion batteries by referring to the presence of
known-to-be-inflammatory elemental metallic lithium have got their
chemistry mixed up. ...

I must have missed that. Where exactly in TSA materials does it say
that "known-to-be-inflammatory elemental metallic lithium" is the issue?

--
Best regards,
John Navas
Panasonic DMC-FZ8 (and several others)
.

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