Re: DSLR vs P&S a replay of Film vs Digital?

Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
"David J Taylor" <david-taylor@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
"David J Taylor"
<david-taylor@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
So *I* said nothing that equates to "not exceding
1000:1", which is something *you* made up. A
manufactured quote...

"A good match for 10-bit cameras" means that the two are
close, and the film maybe even wins.
10 bits - 1000:1 - first order

But "not exceding" is entirely a limitation of *your*
fabrication. I said no such thing.

And what does "under typical conditions" have to do with
it that was *not* inferred already? Even under unusual
conditions film just doesn't have as much dynamic range
as the typical top of the line DSLRs today (Canon 1DsIII
and Nikon D3).

What you suggested is to compare to a film that was
discontinued a decade ago, and indeed one which
*doesn't* even get your fabricated 1000:1 ratio!
I chose the first transfer characteristic I was able to find.

The fact that it doesn't support your claims is
significant, eh? Even the Kodak curves for Tri-X don't
support you.

Here's another URL to review. Note the age of this
webpage, and the fact that DSLR's today are running more
than 2 fstops _better_ than the one shown.

http://www.normankoren.com/digital_tonality.html#Dynamic_range
which also shows Tri-X film as having somewhat more than a 10-bit (3 in
log base 10) range.

It shows Tri-X at *less* than 10 stops. About 2.8, not
3.0, or roughly about 631:1, for 56 dB of dynamic range.

The difference is, I think, that the film's greater dynamic range occurs

The film's *lesser* dynamic range.

That same page shows a Canon EOS-10D to have about 8.47
bits, or 355:1 for about 51 dB. But of course a lot of
water has gone under the bridge since then, and typical
digital SLRs today are all above 9 bits, many are above
10, and the best are over 11 (2048:1 or 66 dB).

Roger Clark lists 11 different cameras with more than 10
fstops of dynamic range, and that excludes of course all
of the newer models (Nikon D300 and D3, Canon Mark III):

http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/digital.signal.to.noise/index.html

in a less useful region than digital's. Note that in figure 4 the film
has not saturated when the graph stops.

Here is Kodak's webpage with info on TriX. You are
welcome search for circumstances that look better:

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/f9/f9.jhtml


This may well me a case of what is useful range, where I believe a DSLR wins, vs. range under any conditions. In the transfer functions of density vs exposure they always seem to stop the curve even though the density is still clearly going up. One reason for this might well be that they are already getting into such a noisy area at high density that there is little point in showing the curves that high.

I believe film has a very large DR, but I also believe that to get it you have to way over expose and you will not be happy with the photo.

I have seen a test someone did where they just kept increasing the exposure to see how far they could still get an image, pretty amazing how far they could go, but you probably would not want any of the greatly over exposed photos.

Scott
.

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