Re: Neutering -- Negative Health effects

mmmmtmmmm@xxxxxxxxx wrote:
On Dec 24, 8:17 pm, FurPaw <furrealpaw...@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
mmmmtm...@xxxxxxxxx wrote:
I never said dogs were apes. All I was implying is that the myth
that "humans are the only creatures that can think and feel" is
completely false.
Chimpanzees can think and feel. Humans are not unique in being the
only creatures on the planet with a rational mind. Dogs cannot
express their thoughts and feelings in American Sign Language
because they don't have hands to sign with. This does not mean that
they don't feel or think. I am not saying a dog is anything other
than a dog -- but I am saying that they have feelings. They do
communicate, but not in English or sign language. You just have to
care enough to make an effort to understand their language, instead
of being so arrogant that just because you don't understand when
they talk to you, you just assume they are meat robots.

In this discussion you have raised some interesting ethical
questions, which at base flow from the question: do humans have
a right to impose their will on other animals (including dogs)?

It's a pervasive belief that we do, and in Western Culture it
mostly stems from Genesis 1:26 "Let us make man in our image,
after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of
the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and
over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth
upon the earth." And this leads to what is often an unconscious
assumption that humans have the right and/or duty to make
decisions for other animals.

If you opt out of this justification, as your posts regarding
sterilization of male dogs and euthanization of stray dogs seem
to suggest that you do, do you also:

(1) refrain from eating meat, or at least refrain from eating
meat that you obtained that was farmed for the purpose of human
consumption (as opposed to obtained through hunting and killing
or scavenging the remains)?

(2) refrain from wearing clothing made from dead or living
animals (e.g., leather or wool)?

(3) refrain from fouling the environment that you share with
other animals, e.g., refrain from polluting it with burned fossil
fuel or industrial waste? And do you refrain from purchasing or
using products whose manufacture creates pollution?

(4) refrain from experimenting on other animals for the purpose
of doing research of any sort - whether production of cosmetics
or human-life-saving drugs or just basic science? And do you
refrain from using products or drugs or medical procedures that
were developed using animals as research subjects?

These are ethically tough questions, but ones you need to answer
affirmatively if you want to maintain a pure attitude of respect
for your fellow (non-human) animals. And it takes some
significant mental gyrations to justify 'using' animals in some
circumstances but not others.

FurPaw

--
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched,
every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense
a theft from those who hunger and are not fed,
those who are cold and are not clothed."
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

To reply, unleash the dogs.

FurPaw, you asked some very reasonable questions. I appreciate you
acting mature and sensible about all of this. I will answer them one
by one

1) I do not buy meat for myself. I will eat meat if someone is eating
a meal with meat in it, and they invite me to eat with them (depending
on the meat -- I still won't eat fast food and crap like that ever).
But that doesn't happen much, so I generally eat meat a few times a
year, and only when someone else has already purchased it anyway.

I do, however, buy meat for my dogs -- they never eat kibble (yuck).
I do not agree with the way that it is produced, but at this point, I
do not have a choice. On the one hand, I could go hunting on someone
else's land for deer -- in which case I would either get shot or
arrested, neither of which is an option for me right now. On the other
hand, I could let my dogs go (the puppy would have to wait until I
felt he was old enough to handle himself, though), so that they could
hunt for their own food -- the problem with this is that within a day
or two, they would be "rescued" by some animal control group, locked
in a cage, and murdered. They don't have a healthy suspicion of people
yet, like a feral dog would. I love them too much to see them get
"humanely" slaughtered.

Like many things in this society, we are often forced to do things we
don't like. There are many evil people out there, and if I knew my
dogs wouldn't fall prey to them, then I would let them go and hunt for
their own meat, and if the rich didn't own all of the land, I would go
hunting. But those are two big ifs, and for now I am forced to feed
them the only way I can, which is to buy meat at a store.

2) All of my clothes are cotton, with the exception of a pair of wool
socks. But I buy all of my clothes from thrift stores, so even if I
did buy leather I would not be supporting a leather corporation, just
whatever charity runs the thrift store.

3) Yes, I do refrain from fouling the environment as much as I can.
But I definitely play a part in fouling the environment, just like
everyone else who buys anything from a store.

Once again, in this society, we are often forced to do things we
wouldn't do if we had a choice. But I do my best not to buy anything
that is not a necessity, and always buy things used, so that the
corporations that manufacture them do not see an economic benefit. I
truly wish that I could go and live in the woods and live off of
edible plants and hunting. But this is illegal (if everyone could
legally do that, it would be awfully hard to keep them in factorys and
retail stores wouldn't it), and I have to eat.

4) I don't do or support any of this. I don't use chemicals on myself
-- the chemical I do use is an all-natural soap that is not tested on
animals. I don't use cleaning chemicals, deoderants or any of that
crap. I've got enough toxic waste spread around without applying to
myself and my house.



The fact that everyone does bad things (i.e. supporting corporate
destruction and environmental degradation) does not justify doing bad
things, however. It especially does not justify doing bad things that
are not NECESSARY TO SURVIVAL -- i.e. things such as rape or locking
dogs in cages and killing them. None of us are perfect in this
society, but we can be better by minimizing the amount of pain and
suffering we cause. Torturing dogs is not working towards that goal.


Oh sharon....
Take your obscure thoughts and shove them where the sun don't shine,
sweetie. Then call every rescue shelter in your 5 state area and
volunteer every hour of your time as a volunteer. You haven't seen
suffering until you have seen litterS of puppies and kittens every
day starved, neglected and medically ill to the point of near death.
Ever seen a litter of babies abandoned by the mother because she is,
herself, is starving to death? Your solution?

I wouldn't volunteer to work at a prison or a torture camp, and I
won't volunteer to work at a shelter -- I don't want to play a part in
your animal abuse. I haven't assumed anything about you. You don't
love them, or you wouldn't lock them in cages. You can try to justify
it however you want, but if I took any human you "love" and did what
those shelters do to the dogs and cats there, you would hate me for
it.

Yes I've see "starved", "neglected" puppies before. That's nature
"sweetie" and if you just let them die, then you could spare them the
cage, the knife, or the gas chamber. I don't see how killing and
locking them up relieves their suffering. I've seen plenty of starving
people too, should I lock them up and inject them with poison?

I've also seen plenty of dogs that are NOT starving, and are totally
fine living on their own. Of course, this is only in rural areas where
they are out of reach of "animal control" and got a chance to make it
to adulthood. Like I said, if people stopped meddling, nature would
balance it out. Just like nature is going to balance out the human
overpopulation problem in a few years.


You must be *some* saint.
I'm not calling myself a "saint". I'm just saying I don't torture
dogs. If that makes you feel like you need to lash out, then maybe you
need to think about why it's such a sensitive subject.


No! My dog is my baby!
But surely different from a human baby, who you would absolutely never
dream of doing it to right?

No I cant have kids!
Whats the difference between that and circumcision? or fixing you babbys
lazy eye or gromets or any number of non nescesary operations.
~shady angel~


.