Re: OT: Is Mormonism a cult?

On Oct 17, 9:42 am, bon...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Robert Bonomi) wrote:
In article <82b25dad-01c4-454b-bd20-054bc7220...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,

Jenny6833A  <Jenny68...@xxxxxxx> wrote:
On Oct 15, 1:18 am, bon...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Robert Bonomi) wrote:
Jenny6833A  <Jenny68...@xxxxxxx> wrote:

2)  An agnostic a) doesn't _know_ if a god/gods do or don't exist, but
b) _believes_ on faith, with zero evidence, that such knowledge is
_forever_ unobtainable.

Agnostics have *NO* belief that such knowledge is 'unobtainable', forever
or otherwise..

Agnostics simply require actual evidence before 'making up their mind'..

If that's how you want to define it, that's fine with me.  But you
might take the trouble to read a bit about how Thomas Henry Huxley
defined the term he invented.

To quote Huxley, himself;
   "This principle may be stated in various ways, but they all amount to
    this: that it is wrong for a man to say he is certain of the objective
    truth of a proposition unless he can produce evidence which logically
    justifies that certainty. That is what agnosticism asserts and, in my
    opinion, is all that is essential to agnosticism."

You have stated that you 'disbelieve' the 'certainty' of either side of
the proposition of whether or not God exists.  

I can't imagine saying any such thing.

You have stated you make your determinations based solely on 'evidence'.
That you require 'evidence', enough to 'logically justify' "certainty"
before you will accept the validity of any side of the proposition.

I don't speak of certainty. It's unobtainable.

This seems to be  an _exact_ match to Huxley's definition, above.  

By the way, note well that there is *NOTHING* in that definition about
being '_forever_ unknowable' -- contrary to your prior 'assertation of
fact' as to what the term means.

<snip repititious malarkey>

Dear Robert,

T.H. Huxley made solid contributions on many topics. However, his
invention of 'agnostic' was not one of his best efforts -- primarily
because he meandered all over the lot as to what it meant.

I don't intend to enter into a quote war on the topic, for exactly
that reason.

Below find one of the modern definitions. Note that the three
definitions given also meander all over the lot. I happen to be using
the first one, which that particular dictionary considers to be
primary.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/agnostic
ag·nos·tic
/ægˈnɒstɪk/ Show Spelled[ag-nos-tik] Show IPA
noun
1. a person who holds that the existence of the ultimate cause, as
God, and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable, or
that human knowledge is limited to experience. Synonyms: disbeliever,
nonbeliever, unbeliever; doubter, skeptic, secularist, empiricist;
heathen, heretic, infidel, pagan.
2. a person who denies or doubts the possibility of ultimate knowledge
in some area of study.
3. a person who holds neither of two opposing positions on a topic:
Socrates was an agnostic on the subject of immortality.

You can, no doubt, find other dictionaries with other definitions or
with similar definitions listed in a different order. For example,

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/agnostic

1ag·nos·tic
noun \ag-ˈnäs-tik, əg-\
1: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is
unknown and probably unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to
believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god

2: a person who is unwilling to commit to an opinion about something
<political agnostics>


From the above, it should be clear that dictionary definitions vary.
There is no "generally accepted" definition of the term 'agnostic.'

[As an aside, I'll mention that the same applies to the word
'atheist': www.dictionary.com defines the term as "a person who
denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings"
which is the definition the overwhelming majority of atheists use.
Those who deny a particular god are known as strong atheists in regard
to that particular god. Those who merely disbelieve in a particular
god are known as weak atheists in regard to that particular god. To
say, as I and most atheists do, that atheism means a-theism (without
theism) is a more concise way of saying the same thing. Like most
atheists, I'm a strong atheist in regard to some gods and a weak
atheist as to others.]

Because 'generally accepted' definitions of these terms don't exist,
it's therefore necessary to define one's terms when laying out one's
views in discussions such as the one we've been having.

It was my responsibility to do so, and I did it.

By contrast, you keep talking about 'generally accepted' meanings,
which allows you to pick whichever of the many definitions that best
suit whatever you're saying at the moment.

If you want to contest my reasoning, based on the definitions I
provided, feel free to do so by email.

If you absolutely won't accept the terms 'theist,' 'atheist,' and
'agnostic' as I've defined them, I'll just stop using those words.
I'll just use the same definitions I've been using, but attach them to
different words.

Quite simply, I will NOT engage in asinine arguments as to what is
"generally accepted."

If endless crap about 'generally accepted" is going to be your
approach in any further discussion, I'm not interested.

Have a nice day.

:-)

Jenny
.

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