Re: New concept in RV hardware.
- From: nothermark <nothermark@xxxxxxxx>
- Date: 10 Mar 2009 07:03:02 -0500
On Tue, 03 Mar 2009 23:07:23 -0500, Neon John <no@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Tue, 3 Mar 2009 09:54:36 -0500, "Tim Barr" <tim_j_barr@xxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
Hi,
Found this site through a poster on another forum I lurk in, an owner
specific one for Titanium fifth wheels:
www.rv-c.com
It's sort of an OBD-II except for RVs, pretty interesting concept, don't
know if it'll fly though.
I've thought about this for a couple of hours and have come to the
conclusion that the possible benefits won't outweigh the costs which
will be considerable.
Let's think for a moment what it would take to put self-diagnosis on
common RV gadgets.
Generator
EFI would be a must. That's coming sooner or later anyway. Figure
$250 OEM cost for the computer and necessary hardware. Misfire
detection can be in the firmware. An oxygen sensor would be necessary
for many diagnostics, 2 if a cat converter is included.
Sensors to monitor the AC output would be necessary. Say, $20 OEM. The
"GCM" (generator control module) can probably manage these. The
ability to do winding integrity (megger) checks would be almost
mandatory, given the infrequent use many generators get. Figure $50.
The NRE costs would be significant and would repeat to an extent for
each individual model. I could see the price of a generator doubling.
Worth it? Maybe. Probably not.
Furnace.
Electronic combustion controls for sure. An oxygen sensor in the flue
and a combustion chamber pressure transducer to detect forced draft
fan malfunctions and other combustion instabilities. An additional
flame rod might be able to deal with the combustion instability
problem but at somewhat reduced reliability over a pressure
transducer. Either variable speed forced draft fan or a servo on a
damper.
Fan motor monitoring for sure. Speed, winding temperature and perhaps
brush life. Brush life might be imputed from operating hours or it
might be measured.
I could easily see an additional $200 added to the cost of a furnace.
Worth it? No. A furnace is very easy to diagnose without a computer.
Refrigerator
Additional hardware might include a gas pressure transducer, a system
pressure transducer and better flame monitoring. Hardware costs would
be minimal, perhaps $50. A more sophisticated controller would be
required but most of that cost would be for firmware. Maybe $150
added cost.
Worth it? Possibly. Many reefer problems, as reported here and in
other forums, seem to be transient in nature. A controller that would
detect transient problems and take a condition snapshot as OBD-II does
could be very handy. I don't see any benefit to networking the reefer
to the rest of the rig, however.
Inverter/converter/battery charger
As an integrated 12 volt power management system, the added complexity
and minimal cost would probably be worth it, especially if the
diagnostics include battery health. Keepting track of battery cycles,
DoD (average and max), internal impedance and a few other parameters
could go a long way toward extending battery life. Minimal additional
hardware required, probably no more than $50.
This is an area where some automation could have the largest payback.
One could almost endorse a CANbus controller on the generator just so
the power management system could also manage the generator.
Integrated power management
Something few except the highest end rigs have. This would be an
extension of the 12 volt management system and would encompass shore,
generator and inverter 120vac power management. This would be nice
but except as an optional extra, I don't see the cost-benefit being
positive. It would take a LOT of NRE to make the system stone-cold
reliable.
The problem that is see is that a fully implemented RV-C system could
easily add $10,000 to the retail price of a rig while decreasing the
reliability. The auto industry has spent literally $billions getting
to where it is now, where automotive electronics are as reliable as a
rock. They could do that because the expense is spread out over the
millions of vehicles produced every year.
I just don't see that happening with an RV industry that measures
output in the thousands industry-wide. Unreliable electronics are
worse than no electronics at all. Exhibit A: GM's 8-4-2 variable
displacement scheme of the 70s.
One of the major pitches for CANbus is that it can save wiring costs
in cars. A tail light module can have a single wire running to it that
carries power and the signal. Each lamp socket has its own little
CANbus controller that listens for the packet that tells it to turn on
or off.
A major benefit when you're building millions of units a year and
where the electrical portion contributes a major chunk of the total
cost. The same case cannot be made for RVs where wiring is a minor
cost component.
So after thinking about this for awhile I have come to the conclusion
that the benefits simply don't outweigh the combination of costs and
reliability issues. I see it merely complicating what is to date a
very simple and reliable gadget - the modern RV.
John
I wonder how much of the needed sensor array is just an interface to
for sensors and controls already designed for automated testing and
tuning in production.
.
- References:
- New concept in RV hardware.
- From: Tim Barr
- Re: New concept in RV hardware.
- From: Neon John
- New concept in RV hardware.
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