Re: OT- Take My Son

Lone Haranguer wrote:
....
Linus, try not to let any of your recent overindulgences go to your
head, okay? I'm not Michael Newdow, nor do I even begin to think
like that moron. I have no inborn hatred for religion.

Obviously you do. Read your own gibberish. You sound like Stan Birch
on a roll.
I'm saddened that your ability to grasp concepts is so limited. But, not
to worry, there's always hope...

All I have ever said was that the great, supernatural, deity "in the
sky" that you worship with such fear and fealty is a big nothing.

What fear and fealty? That's ALL in your mind, a mind which has been
conditioned against anything you can't grasp.
Now, coming from no less *a luminary* on *conditioning and grasping* than
yourself, *that* was funny!

I contend that wise men far more learned than you, I, or any of the
long-dead "experts" you know in that regard, have at least an equal
basis for their teachings. That the "God" that you and some of the
others reading here so fervently look for is not up in the sky, out
of reach, and some kind of fearsome purveyor of death that if you
fail to worship him through his designated portals (priests) you
will be damned to eternal hellfire!

I've stated here in plain English many times that I don't believe in
Heaven or Hell.
Eeeeh, gads! What heresy! Infidel ***! (:-o)!

You're imagination has assumed all the rest that you
rant against.
Like Will, as soon as the ability to project your concepts via the written
word eludes you, the only reply you can seem to find is to accuse me of
"rant(s)". An interesting manifestation of your inability to conceive of
things beyond your indoctrination.

You have a life-long conditioning that says that your "God" is an
all-powerful, supernatural, mythical being in the sky with deity-like
powers of life and death over you.

Blah-blah-blah. The "conditioning" didn't stick as well in my case as
it has in yours.
Really? Just what part of any "conditioning" was it that didn't "take" on
me? I'd love to know. Really, really!

I contend that that same "power" is not
up in the sky but inside of each one of us--considering the things
we agree on, not that much of point of contention, is it? I'm not
asking or telling you to give up that which you cling to, I'm only
asking that you allow the possibility that someone has learned more
about something than you.

It's not you. I could give you quite a number of witnesses that will
verify my communication with a wide variety of wild creatures, an
ability that you not only lack but will never achieve.
I'm saddened that you had to put it in that light. Always so certain are
you of the utter superiority of your own menial talents. I was about to
congratulate you as a member of a larger mind--for the little talent of
being able communicate with things beyond your pecker (trust me, that
talent is pretty small). It's a skill I taught my kids, and one they've
been using since before they went to (public) school. I have pictures of
my youngest sitting in a forest glade up in Mammoth, Ca., with a momma
Golden Mantel ground squirrel bringing her pink, naked, eyes-closed young
out of hiding and putting them into her hands. Trust me, I well understand
what it is you can do and what that portends. Most of those reading here
will never learn to give up the blocks they have to them doing that for
themselves. While you think that somehow you're special that you can do
that (and, to a point, you are) the simple truth is that anyone can learn
to do that. I taught 4-year olds...

So, as I've been gently telling you all during this thread, how is that any
different or either inhibited or prohibited by what it's been that I've
been trying (and apparently failing) to convey to you?

....
I know that I have powers which you will never have, which obviously
makes me a superior being. I consider it a gene from way back in
human history. Because you don't have it, you can't understand this
power.
So certain is a fool of his invulnerability. Sad, that...

I don't know what genetics has to do with it. But it's certainly possible
that a genetic proclivity has an impact. I'm told that my
great-grandmother as well as my grandmother had that ability as well. But,
just like having the worlds greatest jump-shot, if you don't end up
someplace where they play basketball, learn how to play, and learn how to
do at jump-shot, and then get good coaching in order to hone that, you're
never going to get to demonstrate the worlds greatest jump-shot. OTOH;
anybody can learn to do a jump-shot. Some have the right abilities and
aptitude, while some just learn and apply their lessons better than
others...

I'm not anti-religion or anti-church, nor am I anti-bible. I know
who wrote it, men. I think that they meant well, but were misguided
by some of the same values that you hold so dear. There is no deity
in the sky, but coming from a relative lack of education, they
couldn't make/grasp that concept. That's what superstitions and
rituals are all about--ones you still cling to, even in the 21st
century. They try to make sense of what they see in light of what
they can figure out. And since they couldn't figure out where that
power came from, they called it "God" with all of the power and
trappings of a supernatural deity.

LOL. The above description doesn't fit me at all. Instead it fits
you because you can't believe a mere human could have powers that you
lack.
Clearly your lack of understanding is underscored by your inability to
grasp something so simple...

And it's that, that you fear. You like being able to have something
happen (or not) and say, "God did it!" If frightens *** outta ya
to have to understand that once you realize where the power really
comes from, that it puts you in the cross-hairs when things go wrong.

More laughter. I communicate with not only animals but even some
plants in a way I can't explain or understand. Still I communicate.
I never mastered the plant-thing. Never found anybody that could teach it
to me. Maybe the next time I get to Az. you'll be able to take some time
out of your busy pontification schedule to help me learn that craft.

YOU can't do this. It's not a switch I can turn on or off.
But I can, and have for decades--I was taught that in the early '70's.
Thought for a long time that I was weird cuz I could do that...and then I
learned the rest of the story, as it were, about that... And no, while you
can't "turn it on or off", you can choose to ignore it...which is what most
of those reading our exchange here are doing/have done/will always do.
Truly sad, that...

Sometimes it's there, sometimes it isn't. Sooooo, *I* believe there
do exist forces that can't be seen or understood by science. Call
them anything you like.
True enough. I know of no way to "measure" or quantify that force with
today's methods. But, as you've said for all to read here, it's something
you've done. That you think that only you can do is sad, but not
surprising. How do you think that the 'priestly classes' came about? Them
wanting to share their skills? No! Of course not! Much like your
insistence that only you can do that and I can't, they wanted to hoard
their skills to themselves. And, as a users of that aspect of the force,
you've begun to get a glimpse of its power. Now it begins to dawn on you
as to why "the priests" wanted to keep it for themselves. At least here,
today, while the ignorant may well laugh at you for saying that, they're
not out actively hunting down and killing folks that have that talent. A
good thing, eh?

....
I don't know where my special powers originate. It could well be
something every primitive human once had but has since lost. All I
know is that *I* have it and I've never met anyone else who has.
Welcome to the "inner circle" my friend. All along, despite all of your
vociferous arguments and name calling, you already knew and understood what
I have been trying to explain to you. It's too bad, I was about to spring
my pièce de résistance on you...and you've made it unnecessary. Darn it
all! (:-(!

So forgive me if I gloat over lesser mortals such as yourself.
I *LOVE* that, coming from you...(:-{})!

....
The "Nature's God" they envisioned was not the God that organized
religions recognized.
Careful! You're starting to make my point for me.

It was a power they perceived as existing, even
though they had no way to explain it.
Done! You've made it. Thank you very much! I definitely owe you a beer
the next time we meet.

....
You're not progressing well. Our Founding Fathers recognized clearly
that our rights came not from the God of organized religions but from
nature itself. Maybe some of them had the powers I have?
Bingo! Spot on! Are going to sit there and tell me that we've been
dithering over definitions all this time?

What you don't seem to grasp is that because they recognized that
power, they wrote a document stating that the new nation planned to
recognize that power. In countries where that power wasn't
recognized no such document was written.
'Recognition' and 'being written about' are not mutually related
exclusives. Much has been done of both. But never, to my knowledge, as
well as it was done here. Just because the founders didn't understand the
true nature of that which they fought to harness, doesn't mean it wasn't
active and working.

....
Certainly. But those rights came from men dedicated to having them,
not a mythical deity.

But the men attributed those rights as coming from a power higher than
themselves. You don't seem to grasp the significance of that. They
On the contrary!

didn't take the credit as you claim above.
No. You claim "higher" as a direction. How about, "other" than
themselves? How about "beyond" themselves? How about, "an extension" of
themselves. How about "inside" themselves? In each iteration, the
description still fits and works.

....
You don't find it strange that all these learned men agreed on this
concept?
Not at all. Given their history, backgrounds, educations, and the events
that shaped their lives, what should they have called it? George? Fred?
Thor?

Which ones were big believers in organized religion? They
were THINKERS. You should try it sometime.
I have, thank you. I was kind of hoping that you'd take a crack at doing
that.

....
If you carry your own endowed rights you would still be in your native
country as there would have been no need to leave it.
That's an absurd statement and you know it. I had thought better of you
than that.

Our THINKERS enunciated the concept and created a place where the
concept was put into practice. Most of the rest of the world hasn't
Quite correct!

done this. Dummies, huh? Or are they like you and deny the concept?
No, they're like you...they didn't understand the concept.

....
But they meant nothing to you.
So now you get to decide for *me* what I said or meant? How's that any
different from any common, garden variety priest or leftist?

"so help me God"? If you have no beliefs, you swore a false oath
and
In deed I did. And I meant it, as sincerely as you.

In that case your oath was like Monopoly money. It had no value since
you held nothing sacred to base an oath on.
Actually, it was you that had nothing to base an oath upon. I based mine
on something real. You used a myth, an ancient lie, a convenient
falsehood.

....
An oath is based on a belief. You lacked one.
Au contraire mon frere! An oath is based upon your assertion that you
accept the terms and bonds of that oath. No deity is needed in order to
confirm if you have the internal testicular fortitude to honor that which
you have said. I take it that in your world, if one lacks the testicular
fortitude to enter into such an oath, one can throw in the word "God" and
it all becomes the same in the wash? Are you really that cheap and easy to
buy?

Go back and revisit the words you wrote earlier. You've demonstrated the
ability to use something within yourself, much greater than you and most of
those around you, in order to "communicate" with things outside yourself.
By doing that--as much as others reading here might chuckle--you've
demonstrated a power that most of them can't even ever dream of using. So
they laugh it off, and pretend you & I are the fools. It's the only way
they can justify their own pathetic ignorance of that issue. They may not
write that here, but you can bet that 99.999% of 'em fall into that
category. They're the same ones that have to add, "...so help you God." to
an oath in order to have it mean anything to them. That's the difference
between you, me, other sound folks like the founders of this country, and
the unwashed masses that just stay here for the food, beer, and party.

Every wonder why oaths are taken and what their basis is?
Yep. Sure do. And one of these days if--your "God" willin'--you
live long enough, you too many actually learn the basis behind an
oath.

I already do.
Outstanding! Welcome aboard!

....
I've taken 5 oaths of enlistment and honored all of them. Your oaths
were based on.......what?
The same thing yours were based on. As much as that might annoy ya...

....
Did you know that Atheism has been ruled just another religion by our
courts? Yep.
Do you mean those same courts that ruled that abortion was a "right"? Or
the courts that ruled that "the state" has the right to take your property
if it can get more tax revenue by doing so? Those courts? Got any other
court specialties that you need demolished?

FWIW; I reject the label "atheist". I'm simply a human. It was others
that decided that they couldn't live without becoming "deists". Just
because they did, doesn't make me someone that didn't pick up on a habit
that they liked. I'm just an ordinary human. Agnostic works, but it's an
unneeded label as well. Kinda like two-legged human. What does the
"two-legged" part add? Humans already have two legs. What they don't have
is a built-in need to believe in an all-powerful deity. That's something
that has to be taught. One can't be taught to have 3-legs.

YOU are just another religious fanatic who doesn't
have a church to go to.
Does it give you much deep pleasure to divisively spit out, "religious
fanatic"? FTR; I am neither religious nor fanatic. Only one of us has
that label affixed to them. And, after reading the preceding, I'm
beginning to doubt that even you believe that.

I bet you thought Madelyn Murray O'Hair was
a hero for fighting your cause. (I've seen where they recovered her
Donno who she is (was?). Am I suppsed to care?

remains in a cow pasture in Texas.) She used Atheism to acquire gold
coins for her retirement program. Just like any phony Bible-thumper.
All "bible-thumpers" are phonies.

What a glorious leader you had to model yourself on. <snicker>
You are so sad...<big sigh>

....
You're assuming that I failed to analyze those lessons. I was about 5
when I mentioned to my dad that the biggest crooks in town sat in the
front pews in church. I discarded the lessons I found hypocritical.
It seems that your 5-y/o self was far more astute than the one you have
today...

....
Where do the religious traditions come from? Religions. Duh!
Something you oppose in any form.
You keep coming back to that lie. Would you be so good as to point out
where even once I said I oppose religions in any form? Since you can't,
I'll ask you once more to either refrain from lying or at least cite your
sources. Just because I don't believe in a mythical, supernatural deity
has nothing to do with religion. No matter how often you try to conflate
the two.

....
None that I've chatted with. When I enter a forest, there are so many
"voices" vying for my attention that it's bedlam. I'm often forced to
pause and adjust to them, like turning down a hearing aid. A woods in
the depth of a Minnesota winter is much quieter. Only the animals are
communing on my wave length, the plants are dormant. Sitting on a
winter deer stand is much more peaceful than walking in a summer woods
picking mushrooms. In summer every living plant wants to say a few
words and it's like listening to 10 radio stations at once.
I know that feeling well. It's even worse when I go to town. But, with
just a few minutes of training, that can be ameliorated. It's really not
all that hard.

Another reason I like the desert. Fewer talking plants.
Fewer talking anything's... That's probably why I love the desert.

....
So you just hate religion on general principles but enjoy religious
traditions? Has it dawned on you that religious traditions originate
with religions?
Still stuck on stupid, I see...

So what's your grudge against believers?
I have none. Only you have so asserted. My only grudge against
"believers" would be when they try to smear their dreck on me! And
I lump religions under the same rug as: global warmers, liberals,
PETA, greenpeacers and the rest of the mind-rot of belief that so
often passes for knowledge among the ignorant.

But beliefs like our Founding Fathers used to justify your person
freedoms meet with your approval?
Sure do.

What if they had no such beliefs?
Then we wouldn't be having this discussion, would we?

How long would we have waited for the concept to develop?
I have no idea. Why would that number be important?

....
Allies that shoot at me from ambush are allies I don't need.
And how have I shot at you from ambush? How have I failed to honor my vows
to my uniform and country? How have I failed to support and defend you in
any way at all?

....
"My" anti-religion crusade? You have been sipping at the
sacramental wine, haven't you?

What would be your term for your remarks against believers?
And what would those "remarks" be? Somebody believes in a mythical,
supernatural deity, and says so out loud for all to hear that foolishness,
and you're saying that because I said something about that I'm on an
"anti-religion crusade"? Would silence be better? For whom?

When the liberals come along next year and tell you that their mythical
"god" (little 'G' intended) of global warming demands a tribute from all in
the form of "Carbon remunerations", am I expected to be still as well? Let
each fool define their own god, and kill those that don't agree with them?
Is that what you want? At least some of us have grown a set of balls and
will stand up to ignorance, foolishness, absurdity and stupidity. I was
hoping that we could count on your help. But it would seem that again,
those that can think must stand alone. And then, like always happens in a
socialist dominated society, they'll come for those that stand up for
freedom and rights. Because they must be silenced, right along with those
that worship a "God" not permitted by their religion.

....
been going on since we climbed down out of the trees. Our only
disagreement is that you think your mythical, supernatural deity is
in the sky,

Where did I say that?
I give up, LZ.

....
I'm sure there will be lots of hoots. Hordes of people will be
jealous that they were not granted the powers I was.
Your arrogance is almost up to the level of your
ignorance...almost...(:-o)!


L8r all,
Dusty


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