Re: OT - Recent War Ads tie Iraq to 9/11

Robert Allison wrote:
Lone Haranguer wrote:
Robert Allison wrote:

Yes, I hired illegal aliens. Everyone but the union guys did. That was how we got work done. It was not illegal and we had americans and mexicans working side by side, earning the same money. That went on for decades, at least here in Texas. We also were able to sponsor mexicans to come into the US to work for us. When an illegal would go back home for awhile, we would give him the necessary papers so that he could go to the embassy and show that he had a sponsoring company in the US for which he could work. He would then be allowed to cross the border and come and work for us. All of that ended when illegal immigration became an issue. Sponsorship programs became only for skilled professionals and of course a carpenter or especially a laborer could not qualify. We continued to use them, but they had to enter illegally.

Finally, in 1986 laws were passed making it illegal to hire illegals. At that time it was only 250.00 fine per day, but I was doing work for the city and could not use them. I gradually built up crews of all gringos, but municipal contracts were pretty lucrative and I could afford to pay the going rate for workers with less skills and absolutely less desire to give a good days work for a days pay.

I finally got out of the city work and went back to residential, but by that time the fines had gone up to 10,000.00 per day. Most of the generals (contractors) switched to subs for everything because they seemed to be able to get away with hiring whomever they wanted, so the result was the same, but there was a intermediary between the general and the worker. I continued to use subcontractors and still do to this day. I don't know for sure that illegals are working but I assume that some of them must be. I give the contract to a company and I check to see that the work is being done. Many times I leave and come back and the work is done. I never even see who does it. Everyone that works for my company and that I am responsible for, are americans. I am much more expensive than many of my competitors, but my reputation keeps me in work. They are willing to pay for quality.

My crews are spanish, but they are legal. I check. I haven't found any white guys that can hang with them. I know that there are some out there, but they are usually working for themselves.


Wal-Mart used that same excuse but the government didn't buy it.

Well, it has only been that way for 20 years. I guess we will have to give it time to see if things are going to change.


I said she was responsible for the Justice dept. and told you I didn't want to rehash history for fun. There is a very real problem that exists right now and it is called Iraq. I want to know as much about it as I can, so I can have an informed decision. I am not interested in bashing the Clinton administration.


I really don't care to discuss ANY topic with people who will deny facts in existence. What's the point? If they were dishonest then, they're dishonest now.

I have looked at evidence and you have looked at evidence. Our conclusions differ. You want to talk about it. I don't.
Calling me dishonest because I tell you I don't give a damn about something is dishonest.

You also denied Reno was not responsible, then ran away from your statement. You haven't looked at any evidence, you took Reno's word for everything.

Either that or you are a moron.


Most right wingers are fundamentalist christians that do not believe in science unless it confirms their biblical beliefs. I just assumed.


There you go again, spouting DNC propaganda. You've bought their entire outlook so can't really be counted on to think for yourself.

Your avoidance of the Waco/Reno/Clinton issue shows you believe anything the DNC feeds you.

My entire family are fundamentalist christians that do not believe in science unless it confirms their biblical beliefs.

I can't help what your family believes.

If it doesn't, then
it is deemed to be propoganda. I have been around these people and their friends for my whole life, because that is all that my family would hang around with, to this day. They are all republicans. I didn't get my info from anywhere but what I have seen with my own eyes. It has been quite rare in my experience to come across a right winger that did not cleave to the biblical theory of creation. There have been some, but not enough to make me jump to any other conclusion but that the two are synonymous with each other.

I think your experience sample is too small to consider.


Just brainstorming.


Iran has their own problems. If gas imports were cut off, we might see a revolt there.

Yes, most of the youth, especially, in Iran would be more than happy to live under a more secular government. It is not that they want to give up their religion, it is just that they don't want the goverment to be based on it. The Turkey model would be more to their liking, but now Turkey is moving toward a model more like Irans.

Visions of the Ottoman Empire may have returned.


Ah! So you think the next president will be able to convince Iraq's neighbors of coming in and giving them a helping hand and the only reason they haven't already done this is because they hate and mistrust Bush?


Yes.


You're dreaming.

I think not. Bush is trusted less than Al Qaeda and Osama.

Maybe on your block. He's refreshingly honest compared to the Clintons.

They share the same religion, customs for the most part. They are a fairly stable country in the middle east that shares a border with them and should have an interest in stabilizing or at least helping to stabilize their neighbor.


You've got to be kidding. The Iranians trying to de-stabilize Iraq is one of the prime reasons Hussein attacked Iran.

But Saddam is gone. And now the americans are there.

Doesn't change the fact that Iran prefers an unstable and weak Iraq.

They still have
issues with the west, but not with the people of Iraq.

Rxcept the Sunnis and Kurds.

They probably don't want a bunch more

refugees streaming into their country with no place to live and no way to make a living. Plus they understand them alot better than we do and speak the same language.


Some Shiia may. The primary language of Iran is Farsi (Persian) while the primary language in Iraq is Arabic.

But the only language that is authorized to be used by Imams to study the Quran is Arabic. Most muslims learn arabic to some degree in order to study their religion. All advanced studies are in arabic. It is the only accepted language for Islam. So even though the primary language may be different, they share the same religious language. And the two languages aren't that different to begin with.

So all Muslims in Indonesia, Pakistan and the Philippines learn Arabic?
I don't buy it.


You and they may think tribalism hasn't hurt them or their prospects but that would be true only if they plan on never leaving their tribal surroundings.

They will be increasingly isolated from their more advanced brothers.

Which is exactly what they want to do. Isolation is another trait of the Islamic people. The Burkha is an example of one of the ways that they try to isolate themselves even when out in public. They do not believe that adventurism is appropriate according to the Quran. Living simply, without outside influences and living a righteous life is the goal. They do not seek to be modern.

You haven't met the Turks living in Germany or the Chechens in Russia.
Even the Albanians and Kosovars prefer driving Mercedes cars, not a horse and buggy.

On the contrary, they seek to
remain simple. This is the basis for the animosity that the terrorists have for the west. The west wants everyone to be like the west, and the muslims want nothing at all to be like the west. This is the basis for this entire conflict.

I disagree. A cornerstone of the Muslim religion is the subservience of women. Democracy would give too many rights to women and would also cause the Imams to lose too much power. It's the Imams who are driving this fight and always has been.



So, nothing. I have many things that I like about republicans.


Of course. They make more sense than Democrats.

On some things, yes.

I share

more of a link with the Presidents plan for immigration than most republicans do. I believe in smaller government. I believe in the right to own weapons. I think that true conservatism like Barry Goldwater preached would be good for this country.

I part with them in the overall tone that modern day conservatives have and with preaching one thing while doing another. I believe in choice for women. I believe that government has a role in doing some things for society.

I don't hate them at all. I have a lot in common with many republican ideas. That is why I have to be an independant. I probably share more with the democratic ideals than republican, but there is no candidate so far that I can support on every issue. There never has been.

Splitting your ideals between two parties doesn't make one an Independent. It makes you
a part timer of both parties. An independent would have ideas of their own.

I do. Perhaps you would understand where I am coming from if I state it differently. I have ideas that I have developed over the years. Democrats agree with some of my ideas and republicans agree with some of my ideas. Neither party would be MY choice, but they are all we have. I have to choose which candidate most closely supports what I believe in and vote accordingly.

Join the club. After Clinton, I could never support another Democrat. They proved to be a party that supports their criminals whereas the Republicans ask their criminals to leave town.


That would explain all the phony IDs and SS numbers, right?


Make a hoop and they will jump through it.


So they can avoid answering the question.

What question? About the IDs and SS #s? That is an answer. If you put obstacles in front of them, they will go over, under, around or through them.

You said you only had to ask them if they are illegals or not. We know that's a lie or they wouldn't be carrying false IDs.

There was no law against hiring

illegal aliens until 1986.



A lot have crossed the border since then.


How would one know that for sure. Is it that some go back and others come in? Are all the ones that are here, staying and new ones are adding to their numbers? I don't see that because they come and go almost like geese.


Maybe in your area. Further north they don't bother returning to Mexico. Too risky. They might lose their jobs.

Down here, it is pretty much an accepted fact that the work force is going to diminish during the winter months.

Over Christmas maybe.

They leave in the winter and come back in the

spring. Others come in the winter and leave in the spring. Some come and stay. Others that have been here forever, go back. Almost all of them go back and forth, so are the same ones being counted over and over?


Nope. Check the school enrollments.

For what? Spanish speaking children? Those are the kids of the ones that decide to stay. Those are a small minority of the whole.

Not here.

I can only judge by the availability of them. The availability rate has remained fairly constant in our area for the last 40 years or so. From news reports, I gather that they are moving farther and farther from the border, so if that is the case, there must be more.


They've colonized entire trailer parks here in MN. Once upon a time they were migrant workers but that hasn't been true for years.

I still know migrant workers here, but most of them are legals.

Legals don't run for the bushes when ICE shows up.

I have trouble with what is reported in the press. I see what they are saying, but I also see first hand what is going on in the real world on a daily basis. When I hear that there is a crisis, I look around and see that things are the same way they have been for my whole life. What crisis?


A crisis that we have 12 million people running loose in this country and we have no idea who they really are.


The crisis started here when they passed the law against hiring them.


The crisis started when we allowed them to enter our country without a harsh punishment similar to what Mexico does to illegal entry by Americans. We should enforce reciprocity in treatment of illegal aliens. Mexico screams about mistreatment of their citizens; have you ever spoken to an American's experience if caught in Mexico illegally?

How do you get into Mexico illegally? It is so easy to enter Mexico that I can't imagine anyone trying to be there any other way. If we are going to enforce reciprocity, then we have to make it just as easy to get into the US.

It's easy to enter but don't get caught. Compare getting caught in Mexico without auto insurance when you are involved in an accident compared to what happens in the U.S. to a Mexican who doesn't have ANY insurance, is here illegally and has no driver's license. He can opt to return to Mexico, not so with a Gringo in Mexico. He's going to pay fines or bribes to return to the U.S.

I think your dishonest streak is showing.

The situation has deteriorated to the point where noone feels safe anymore.


Yet the Iraqis have not shown the courage to clean up their own neighborhoods.

They are supposed to wait for Halliburton to do it.

More DNC bull***. Halliburton made their greatest profits when they got no-bid contracts in Bosnia and Kosovo during the Clinton years.

Have you seen how the troops dress when they go out? Most

Iraqis don't have that kind of protection. It ain't safe out there.


It's the Iraqi's fault that they have let things reach that stage.

That is true. Yet it is exactly what those of us that studied the situation before the invasion, knew would be the case. I didn't want our country to be involved in such a mess. This is not something that we can do anything about.

Clinton was warned about aiding the Kosovars too and declared that we had no intention of allowing Kosovo to become independent. Of course it was just another Clinton lie. Independence was the goal all along.

You don't win wars if everyone just wants to be safe. Who would ever go out into harm's way if just biding one's time brought the same result?


Well, eventually someone will win, either the Shias (and my money is on them) or the Sunnis. Since violence is being suppressed by the american presence, it is just going to take longer for it all to shake out. Either that or there will be a national reconciliation and I am not looking for that to happen real soon. I hope for it, but it isn't looking very good.


So the Iraqis are getting exactly what they deserve. They can make their country safe any time they want, just by foregoing their revenge.

Just like you could probably do more good if you would give up your hatred of Clinton.

In that case I won't be trying to do any good until Clinton departs this planet.

I was reading about a Shia representative in the parliament. She was talking about how she wanted reconciliation, but didn't believe that it could be achieved unless the Sunnis came and admitted that they were wrong and apologized to the Shias. To paraphrase her statement; They have killed our people,...how can we ever get past that?


There are still white people living in South Africa. This would not be true if the blacks were still trying to get even for past injustices.

Northern Ireland is going through a reconciliation process also.

The blacks in SA made it a point to reconcile with the whites and chose to forgive them for what they did. It was a plan set in place by the president and a way to move forward. They are not Iraqis and neither are the Irish. Different cultures. And most definitively different religions.

"They have killed our people,....how can we ever get past that?"

Same thing applies.


I have tried to interpret the news reports and reconcile what they are saying with what I know about Arabs in general and Iraqis in particular. From what I can gather, what they are calling thugs are simply tribal leaders. They don't have a grasp on the tribal nature of the country.

Why do you think they are thugs?


Tribal leaders can also be thugs. If they act like thugs, that's what they are.

Yes, they can be, but usually they are community leaders. They just lead differently than what you are used to seeing. That may lead to the mistaken conclusion that they are thugs.

If it quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck.

That is what I meant by MOST westerers

don't see the corollation between tribal rule and democratic politicians. They both understand the situation on a local level and therefore have more insight into how things should be done, and what is customary. Isn't that what you mean?



It boils down to what the law allows them to get away with.


From the reports that I have seen, they are the law.


Exactly. When Democratic mayors run a major city, you can usually count on a higher crime rate. They go easy on their constituents which include the criminal elements.

Well, if muslims shouldn't run the cities, who should?

So their particular clan gets the plum jobs and the power. Exactly what Saddam did and look how much hatred it built up. You want the same thing to continue?

Sounds like you would prefer Saddam back in power. I imagine most Democrats would. They are more comfortable with evil as long as it doesn't threaten their political power.

Other than that one distinction, I don't see much else that the two have in common.



The dictatorship of power.


That is true. And they do NOT want to give it up. Their entire history shows that they would rather die first.


Sounds like the Daley family in Chicago.

I doubt that even the Daley family would be willing to REALLY die rather than stay in power.

Power is their reason for living.

I used to live out that way and we have a Swedish and German community just a few miles from where I live now. Often eat at the Walburg Restaurant and Biergarten

http://www.walburgrestaurant.com/

I just haven't picked up any yet. I am really more interested in learning Mandarin if I can find a teacher. Arabic would be good, too.


The AF wanted to send me to language school at Syracuse University to learn Russian and Chinese but I declined. I was stubborn and they finally gave up.

I love different languages. I wish I could speak several. It is one of my goals to learn at least six languages.

They could easily pass laws preventing that. When we lived in Spain, foreigners could not own property. I think now that they've joined the EU, foreigners are buying land like crazy and driven prices out of sight.


I got the impression that they were happy (at first) to have someone with some money come in and get some commerce started, but bad management has led to the entire country being owned by foreign business. That seems to be happening right here in our country, too. Something I have thought about a lot. Our Tollways here in central TX are owned by a Spanish company and our commuter rail will be operated by a Swiss company.


Americans must consider them more risky or less profitable than other investments.

I have not been able to find out, yet, why the contracts did not go to americans.

Offering bribes could get them into trouble.


So have I and so do I. Maybe we are more alike than I thought. I don't want to believe that.

We are all the result of our life experiences. My 21 years in the AF, travel and living in a variety of places have all contributed to the opinions I've formed. Since the winter of '87-'88 I've spent half the year somewhere between Texas to California so I've got a pretty good idea of what goes on in border communities. I've attended AF schools with foreign students from Germany, France and Iran and taught Spanish airmen how to run a rawinsonde unit.. Almost got a similar job in Brazil based on that experience.
LZ

I did quite a bit of traveling when I was younger. Mostly in the US, but I did live for a short while in Mexico. I have lived from Alaska to Florida and in most of the states south and west of the line between those two states. Haven't spent much time in the north east at all. I have lived in the fifth ward in Houston (a black ghetto), in a $1,000,000 home in Alaska, on the beach in south Texas. I have lived with illegal aliens in a garage apartment. I lived on the streets during the early 70s and moved from crash pad to crash pad. Worked on shrimp boats, as a lumberjack, took flying lessons, smuggled pot across the Rio Grande. I have lived a varied life. I read at least one book every week, sometimes more. And I am only 53.

I retired from the AF at 38 and completely retired at 55. Joined the AF in 1951 and have been traveling ever since. Always was a heavy reader and still average 2 books a week and spend a lot of time at the keyboard doing research.
LZ
.

Loading