Re: OT: Challenges----thought processes etc.,

Don Lampson wrote:

Linus
Your last two items of "evidence" show how NUTZ you are, about your
"crusade to avenge the martyrs of Waco!"
The first was a lawsuit against the Feds. What were the results of
that lawsuit? Did the Feds have to pay the Davidians money, and let
them out of prison? If not, then it had no "merit"...

Get real. Any honest prosecutor can see the Davidian trials were a farce.

If the film footage released through the "FOI Act" showed the Feds
doing anything illegal, why didn't they get arrested for the
"evidence", like the people who mistreated the Iraqis at Abu Ghrieb
Prison did?

Because Reno was AG. There are pictures of a cameraman being beaten up by the ATF. Did the ATF guys go to jail? No. Instead the feds hounded the cameraman and his employer until he lost his job and couldn't get another. At last report he was selling cars for a living.

Under Clinton, your government was run as a full-time criminal enterprise, the same way he ran Arkansas.

Everybody in the Gov can't be afraid of being blackmailed by the
Clintons, or in on "the coverup" can they?
The only guy who spoke up was the government prosecutor, Bill Johnston. Reno saw to it that he lost his job and was prosecuted. She didn't like whistleblowers.
LZ

B. Early photos clearly show that the Davidian Compound was riddled with bullets while the ATF vehicles had no bullet holes in them.

C. The critical front door, a peice of evidence which would have shown who shot at whom was mysteriously lost while in possession of the authorities.

D. From a nearby farmhouse, the ATF trained a video camera on the Davidian compound, not just during the 51 day standoff, but for several months prior to the attack. The only tape missing is the tape from February 28th, the day of the assault.

E. The shooting review was generating statements that the ATF shot first. Again from the Congressional Report: "Documents explicitly showed that `DOJ [Department of Justice] does not want Treasury to conduct any interviews . .. . [that might] generate . . . material or oral statements which could be used for impeachment' of Government witnesses, and that hopefully if such material is not gathered, `the passage of time will dim memories.' (Memorandum from Treasury Assistant General Counsel for Enforcement, dated April 14, 1993.)

Earlier, on March 1, 1993, in interview notes, the ATF's initial `shooting review' of the February 28, 1993 initial assault at which time ATF agents fired their weapons, the ATF is advised to `stop the ATF shooting review because ATF was creating Brady material.' (Note: `Brady' material is evidence that would tend to establish innocence or which could be used in mitigation of guilt.)

In handwritten notes, taken at some point during the siege, Government attorney Ray Jahn directs that interviews are to stop because exculpatory statements may be generated.

This pattern of activity to deliberately avoid collection of relevant evidence, because it might tend to establish a person's innocence, or, as is apparent from other documents, might embarrass the ATF, raises very troubling questions to say the least, about the interests of the Government in establishing the truth and in seeing that justice is done. Neither goal would be met under the circumstances evidenced by these documents. That the Department of Justice casually dismisses these concerns should be of concern to the Congress and to the people of this country."

CLINTON ORDERED THE GAS

A. First, let's review what Congress said about this decision: "The Government's use of CS gas in the manner it did, that is, clearly designed to incapacitate men, women and children in a confined, unventilated space, after avenues of escape had been deliberately cut off, was unconscionable; as was the cursory manner in which the Government, and especially Attorney General Reno `bought into' the conclusory and simplistic analyses that the use of CS gas posed an `acceptable' level of risk.

The fact is, while experts may--and did--differ over the precise effects of CS gas on children, or how and in what ways the use of CS gas might act as a catalyst for a fire, no rational person can conclude that the use of CS gas under any circumstances against children, would do anything other than cause extreme physical problems and possibly death.

For the Government of this country to consciously use CS gas in the way it did on April 19, 1993 in Waco is utterly indefensible and should never be allowed to be repeated. I believe the deaths of dozens of men, women and children can be directly and indirectly attributable to the use of this gas in the way it was injected by the FBI."

B. On April 12, 1993, the FBI presented Attorney General Janet Reno with a plan to end the standoff with the Branch Davidians. On April 14th she rejected it because it the use of CS gas was clearly too dangerous for children. On April 16th Webster Hubbell, as a direct representative of President Bill Clinton, had a meeting with Reno in which he told her it was the President's decision to gas WACO. To save face on her abrupt turnaround, Reno asked for a report on the consequences of using CS gas. On April 17, 1993, Webster Hubbell gave her the report, she showed her distain for it by not reading it and then the Attorney General immediately signed her approval for the plan to be implemented on April 19th.

C. When things went wrong and 76 US citizens were killed, including 30 women and 25 children, Clinton distanced himself from the decision. Reno said she took responsibility but then took no responsibity or consequences - she did not resign, get demoted, or even reprimanded. Taking repsonsiblity meant simply taking the heat off Clinton.
CATO CRITIQUE OF DANFORTH WHITEWASH
On April 10, 2001, The Cato Institute released its critique titled, "No Confidence: An Unofficial Account of the Waco Incident," Policy Analysis no. 395, of the official whitewash. ATF agents that lied to federal investigators, beat a local camera man and were never prosecuted. The FBI showed a gross disregard for human life by firing ferret rounds at the compound and using tanks to ram its walls. Since one child was struck and killed by an FBI ferret round Cato concludes "second degree murder charges may be appropriate" against the FBI agent involved. The involvement as supervisors at Waco of FBI personnel suspended for lying and destroying evidence at Ruby Ridge should have alerted Danforth that he needed to do a professional job, but he ignored those red flags. No attempt was made by Danforth to investigate why there was so much evidence missing at Waco. Cato concludes - "the Waco incident will leave an odius precedent that federal agents can use the 'color of their office' to commit crimes against citizens."


.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: "The Arrow of Time" (repost)
    ... and there's no evidence that time exists. ... I am interested in all of those above, but there is more to entropy ... No. Entropy says that the gas will fill the room to the same ... >>> constructs as evidence of its physicallity. ...
    (sci.physics.relativity)
  • Re: The worlds biggest taboos
    ... would come looking for them after the war, so they covered it all up. ... The gas DID have other documented uses...this fact alone should have ... Your denial of the fragmentary evidence available on paper is dishonest. ... There is NO legitimate use for the gas with the anti choking agents removed ...
    (uk.politics.misc)
  • Re: It is sublime
    ... allergic to evidence and worship your own ignorance, ... the lobbyists for coal or gas & oil or a lobbyist for coal or gas & oil. ... My bet is on "stupid brainwashed puppet." ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: Pre-Crime Policing
    ... # #2 ATF agents could have easily walked to the door,knocked and ASKED ... I suspect enough evidence actually survived and it would show there were no ... # And, apparently, Janet's ATF. ... # many #lives lost and a great travesty of justice. ...
    (rec.guns)
  • Re: Is the Holocaust a hoax?
    ... all this 'Holocaust deniel' is about....and exactly what 'evidence' the ... some 'Nazi Plot' to systematically exterminate Jews by gassing...are very ... fabrication of execution equipment, including homicidal gas chambers. ... The structural integrity of these "gas chambers" is also extremely faulty. ...
    (uk.politics.misc)