Re: OT: Obama surging in Montana

On Jul 7, 9:40 am, jc...@xxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
On Jul 7, 2:17 am, snedek...@xxxxxxx wrote:

1. The consumptive use and misuse, of the water resource, and their
related effects are the standard formula by which a number of human
cultures are known to have committed suicide,

I agree -- I never said it was good I just said it was, and that it is
_us_ who are to blame, not "them", whoever "they" are...

including several which occupied the ground under your own feet in New Mexico.

No, they didn't control the long term wet/dry cycles. Just like any
population, when resources were plentiful they expanded, and when
resources became scarce they suffered.

2. The way we weve managed water up to now will not be sustainable no
matter how many tee shirts we can accumulate.

Again, I agree, but _we_ that are participating in this thread do not
live sustainable lifestyles, so why are we all mad at the Klamath
farmers and a policy to support them? Besides, didn't I read something
about you getting your water supplies for farming all ready and
working? (maybe I was mistaken, though)

3. It is ALL about the fish.

If I'm forced to choose between humans and fish, I'm sorry but I'll
choose humans. Yeah if the world goes to pot and us 6 billion humans
start dying off, it's gonna be bad news for the environment (already
is in many parts of the world), but again, I'm not gonna volunteer to
check out, so I can't very well ask anyone else to...

Even in the short
run, it is not a real choice between the fish or us. When the fish are
all gone, we will be all gone. Trust me.

The fish will never be all gone. There's still fish in the Rio down
here. But yes, I agree we are impacting our environment very
negatively. Again, _we_ participating in this thread aren't exactly
model citizens in this regard.

4.Its not like we cannot do better.

I agree wholeheartedly. I never said the environment would not have
done better under a Dem administration, all I said was that I didn't
think the chicken little warnings of public land selloff and ruination
would come true, and it seems they haven't.

We either change and adapt or we will create a
living hell and sink further into Fascism.

Ok, so what are _we_ who are participating in this thread doing to
change and adapt? I know I live a pretty consumptive lifestyle, and
I'm pretty sure I'm not an outlier among us...

Take care,

Jon.

Lots to discuss here.

1. "Them" and "us" and "we" and "I:" Yep I agree that, like Pogo, I
have seen the enemy and he is us. But, it's also true that some of us
have more wasteful lifestyles and out of ignorance, libido, obsession,
criminality, cussedness, lack of economic options real and perceived,
etc, . . . waste more/have a bigger carbon footprint/pollute etc more
than others. We as a society, do little to differentiate between what
one might do for "survival," and what one converts from the common
wheal to ones sole benefit. For example, "My firm could not survive if
we had to clean up our mining wastes/use the cheaper toxic whatever/
not use child labor/ couldn't hide our profits offshore/etc etc..

2. Klamath type situations: One or two years of water to get farmers
thru a drought, versus 20 expensive years to maybe restore a fish run
that commercial fishermen rely on. The farmers had every prospect of
compensation (not that they had a clear right to compensation since
they had clearly overused the allocation for Ag and wanted the water
allocated to the fish, rather than adjust their irrigation practices
or crop mix. Even from a business prospective, the choice the Bush
administration took was more expensive long or short term. That choice
didn't really help these farmers, certainly hurt the commercial
fisherman, and all of us will be paying for this and a raft of other
bad choices long after the right-wing ideologues cease getting
stiffies over poking the environmentalists in the eye per the Klamath
River stunt.

3. Early indigenous land use; Its becoming clear that before the great
die-offs that came with European contact, many native peoples of this
hemisphere had developed more large scale sustainable land management
and adaptation practices than was understood to be the case up thru
the 1960's. The book, "1491," is a very accessible summarization of
what the new archaeology and anthropology is telling us about these
practices and the populations they sustained.

4. Stewardship issues; Its not yet an all or nothing situation. I make
no claim to perfection but I have and continue to make choices that
will improve what I can. So, I bought my 1/2 mile of river instead of
the 2 German cars and a new kitchen the money from an inheritance
would have paid for, BECAUSE I want to protect and improve the river.
Specifically, we will be backing Ag operations further back from the
river, planting more water cooling shade, and figuring out how we can
reduce our water take. I have planted trees, thickened hedgerows,
encouraged wildlife on each of the small properties i have owned save
one. Understand, 11 of the 14 generations of my family in this country
were farmers. But for loosing land a few generations ago I would be on
our land in Cranbury New Jersey raising corn, soybeans and potatoes.
That land has been continuously farmed since before the revolution and
is still farmed today, unfortunately not by me. Point is I know that
stewardship makes good long term business sense in farming.

Dave
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Michael Ruses Model
    ... well as lungs to breath and gills to survive under water. ... The swim bladders of teleost fish are modified lungs. ... This one looks like it could have better locomotion on land then Tiktaalik. ... Once I give you a set, you can ask for the transitions between them. ...
    (talk.origins)
  • New York Times Tiktaalik Editorial
    ... as a missing link documenting the transition from fish to land ... to allow it to haul itself out of the water. ... Scientists had previously found fossils of several other fish species ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: Human Hair
    ... The point is that the threats in the ... water, clearly, we would have fared better on land. ... than the strongest of humans. ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: Behaviour problem with a Dutch Ram
    ... A fin in gill look at what our fish might tell us. ... On filtration: committee chaired by Betta splendens. ... A reminder was issued to the humans that fish cannot ... pre-occupation with crystal clear water is a human one. ...
    (rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc)
  • Re: Behaviour problem with a Dutch Ram
    ... a room divider about 6" tall) the Ram will usually pick a side and defend ... A fin in gill look at what our fish might tell us. ... Fishes in their natural habitats are perfectly happy in water containing various types of floating debris, and this pre-occupation with crystal clear water is a human one. ... A sub-committee has been formed to supply the humans with a UUN resolution to replace the 1"/gallon guideline with a scale based on fish length x movement index by family. ...
    (rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc)