Re: Mixolydian V chord


"Joey Goldstein" <nospam@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:fmb49d$5ov$1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


Well, I'd need a more convincing argument than that to give up my
"fantasy".
Sorry.

I can't provide one other than historical study.



I.e. I think that they did sit around saying: "I wonder what I can do to
make my music more effective at establishing a key center", especially
once they had begun experimenting more with frequent modulation.

You're putting the cart before the horse though Joey. The concepts of moving
centers had been around in Modal music, and the elements that ultimately
lead to the cadences the we hear as establishing key centers evolved
gradually from this music - it didn't just happen one day. We really can't
find a work (though some are purporting some) that is "the first tonal
piece". Bach's Chorales have a highe degree of modality in them, and yet,
the modulate almost measure by measure in some cases (or I should say, they
Tonicize frequently), so there's a huge degree of crossover here.

[snip]

I never said that it was the only way to establish a tonal center.
I said it was the most effective way to establish a key.

Or maybe, we now percieve it as the most oft-used method of establishing a
tonal center.

[snip]

Resolutions of the tritone - in contrary motion, by step - in Tonal
music - that do not establish the (or a) tonic, really?
Examples please.

V7-vi.

In this progression, the tritone resolves. But you, by your own admission,
have said (basically) that a progression that does not include the tonic
chord can not establish the key. If you believe that those two chords can
not establish the key, then there is an example of of a tritone (and not
just any tritone - THE tritone) resolving in contrary motion by step that
does not establish the key. Otherwise, if you believe that the resolution of
the tritone in this instance does in fact confirm a tonic, then, you must
concede that a pair of chords of which one is not the tonic must also be
capable of establishing the key. Which do you prefer?

I think, if I recall, you may consider vi to be "the Tonic" - I know many
consider it capable of assuming Tonic function (with which I think you
agree) though CPP theorists do not call it a Tonic per se.

I realized in writing this, you may have meant THE tritone, and not just any
tritone. For example, the tritone C-F# in Ger+6 resolving to B-G does little
to establish the key center of C in which it typically occurs. But yes, B-F
in C almost always occurs in some context in which it's resolution to C-E is
undeniably the key of C. The only instances I can think of are progressions
like viio7/vi - vi in which B-F resolves to C-E, and in this case does
little to establish the key of C - it rather establishes (especially since
in your view the Tonic will confirm the key) the key of a minor. But,
there's an example nonetheless.

[snip]

It defines the context.
A V7-I cadential formula (with associated harmonic rhythms, etc.) can not
really exist in any music without turning it into Tonal music, can it?

Hmmm - terminology here Joey. I've heard a 12-tone work which was clearly
atonal, in which a succession of two harmonic sounds were OBVIOUSLY the
sounds of a G7-C chords. A fellow student asked the composer (this was in a
master class) if that "thing that is so indicative of tonal music" bother
him appearing in his non-tonal work. The composer said "it doesn't bother
me". Now, Schoenberg would have avoided such explicitly tonal implications
for just the reasons you note - it really is indicative of tonal music.
However, I do think we can certainly have successions of tonal sounds in
non-tonal works. We certainly have successions of non-tonal sounds in tonal
works and we don't seem to think they "turn it into Atonal music"!

Now, you say cadential formula and harmonic rhythms. Yes, those are the
trappings of Tonal music - they do really "define" it. I think - or at least
it seems from my perspective - your comments seem to negate the ability of
other factors in tonal music to establish tonality, while I'm trying to
point out there are MANY factors in tonal music that establish tonality (or
factors in centric music that establish centricity) - yes cadential formula
are the primary ones but, tonality can still be established (though any such
occurrences are naturally rare) without the explicit use of a cadential
formula. And of course, it also depends on how far we extend this tonality
umbrella. I hear plenty of rock songs that many people call tonal, which
establish the key by other means.

G Bb C G Bb Db C G Bb G Bb G (Smoke on the Water). Where's the "cadence" or
"cadential formula" in that. If you call this tonality, then, we've had to
accept that a new cadential formula of the "falling flat third cadence"
allows for establishment of a key. This belies everything you've said. But
is it tonal music?

What if rock is not tonal music? Does a V7-I tag at the end of some death
metal piece that only uses a chord progression of bIII, II, bII, I, and ends
with a V7-I suddenly become tonal?

Steve


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