Re: Mixolydian V chord

Steve Latham wrote:
"Joey Goldstein" <nospam@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:fm95mo$bd7$1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

The reason that composers of Tonal music use V7-I and V7-Im cadential formulas so much is because they are more effective at establishing a key felling, with *no ambiguity*, than pretty much any other device they might imagine.

Not really Joey. The reason they use it is because that's how the style developed. It wasn't like some composers were sitting around writing non-tonal music and said "gee, I wonder what I can do to make my music more effective at establishing a key center" In fact, they probably never even thought about it - it was, as it is today in many styles, more likely a "that was a cool sound, I'm stealing that!".

Well, I'd need a more convincing argument than that to give up my "fantasy".
Sorry.
Especially, in minor keys, the introduction of the artificial leading tone in conjunction with scale degree 4 and the V7 chord formed, as a tool for clearly and unambiguously establishing the minor tonic, leads me to think that these guys were definitely drawn to V7 chord for somewhat similar, if not precisely, the logic I stated earlier.

I.e. I think that they did sit around saying: "I wonder what I can do to make my music more effective at establishing a key center", especially once they had begun experimenting more with frequent modulation.

A leading tone, by itself, comes close.
But put it in there with a tritone next to it, resolve it in contrary motion by step, and voila, there's no question what the tonal center is.

Only in an understood context. Years (centuries) before, resolving a Major 6th outward to an Octave clearly established a Center.

I never said that it was the only way to establish a tonal center.
I said it was the most effective way to establish a key.

In this case it was Modal, not Tonal.

Right. Big difference.

And obviously, there are tritone resolutions in tonal music that do not establish the tonic.

Resolutions of the tritone - in contrary motion, by step - in Tonal music - that do not establish the (or a) tonic, really?
Examples please.

The ability of V7-I cadences to establish a key is almost even immune to the effects of harmonic rhythm. But not completely, or there'd be no boogie-woogie music.


Well, in tonal music, the resolution of V7-I clearly is meant to establish the Tonal Center. But it does so within an understood context.

It defines the context.
A V7-I cadential formula (with associated harmonic rhythms, etc.) can not really exist in any music without turning it into Tonal music, can it?


--
Joey Goldstein
<http://www.joeygoldstein.com>
<http://homepage.mac.com/josephgoldstein/AudioClips/audio.htm>
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca
.

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