Re: Note function

SleepyHead wrote:
On 2 Jun, 18:47, Joey Goldstein <nos...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Jon Slaughter wrote:
"Joey Goldstein" <nos...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:f3quel$itv$1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Jon Slaughter wrote:
I'm a little confused about some of the terminology that "jazz" musicians
use when refering to altered scales(by which I mean altered from the
diatonic modes).
"As we can see in Table 13-1, the Locrian #2 n3 scale differs
I've never heard anybody talk about a "locrian #2 n3" scale.
Does he mean, starting on C, C D E F Gb Ab Bb?
That might be an interesting sound to dick around with, but it's not one
of the scales in standard use. Scales with consecutive min 2nds usually
present problems. I.e. the things we usually do with scales (eg. extract
chords) don't work so well.
What book is this?
Its called exotic scales - New horizons for jazz improve by Befumo.
Well they do seem to be pretty exotic.

The scale actually uses +2 w.r.t to major.(so the b3 and n3) so D# E F Gb
OK. Thanks. I figured that out eventually myself too.
In my circles the name for that would be "locrian x2 #3" (i.e. double
sharp 2). But I'd hope to never see that name, either!



from the Locrian mode of the major scale only in that its b2 is replaced
by a n3; that is, the original b3 is still there, but it now functions as
a
#2.
Hmm. The terminology "locrian #2 n3" would normally mean that the locrian
scale's min 2nd is raised to a major 2nd (that's the "#2") and its min 3rd
is raised to a maj 3rd (that's the "n3").
Although the more standardized way to do the scale name would be "locrian
#2 #3".
What book did you say this was?
This #2, introduces an augmented interval between the root and
the augmented second, which is responsible for giving the scale its
exotic sound. Since it contains both the augmented 2 (b3) and a major
third, we..."
Yes, augmented 2nds in 7 tone scales will give an exotic sound, as in the
harmonic minor scale (or its rotations).
But the main thing that makes your scale exotic is the consecutive min
2nds (E-F-Gb).
Actually D# E F Gb...
Right.



Thats from some book I have... In any case obvious a b3 is not the same
as an +2 but this guy and many of them use them interchangably. He does
say it functions as a +2 instead of a b3 but that seems to just be
something "jazzers" learn to say but don't understand it... or do they?
Since its a +2 does it mean that when ever you use this scale and you
play the +2/b3 you should resolve it upward instead of downward or at the
very least the harmony should somehow show its a +2 and not a b3?
I can't speak for your book, but there are times when it makes sense to
think of a note used melodically against a particular chord sometimes as a
b3 and at other times as a #2 or #9.
Eg.
The altered dominant scales is really the 7th rotation of the melodic
minor scale, aka the superlocrian scale.
C mel min = C D Eb F G A B
B superlocrian = B C D Eb F G A
But when we use B superlocrian melodically on a B7alt chord (as the B
altered dominant scale) then we might find it more useful to think of the
Eb as being the chord's 3rd, D#.
We also might find it more useful to think of the D nat as being a #9 on
B7.
As a matter of fact, almost every note in this scale (except for the root,
the b9 and the b7) has an enharmonic ambiguity associated with it.
One spelling might be:
B C Cx D# F G A
1 b9 #9 3 b5 b13 b7
Another might be:
B C Cx D# E# Fx A
1 b9 #9 3 #11 #5 b7
etc.
Sometimes, believe it or not, these notes make more musical sense to a
player, one way rather than the other.
Ok. I do see the issues involved. Because of the enarhmonicity it can be
different over different chords.
Actually, my example showed the role of enharmonics when using the same
scale over a single chord. But they play a role on different chords too.

Eg.
The B superlocrian scale yields a Bm7b5 chord when spaced in 3rds:
B D F A B
C Eb G
The extended chord would be Bm7b5(b9,b11,b13) which is problematic
mainly for the reason that b11s or b4s sound exactly like maj 3rds. So
if I'm playing Bm7b5 and you emphasize an Eb, *you* essentially change
the chord quality to B7b5(#9).
So this chord-scale is usually not used on m7b5 chords.

I'm going to play around with these examples and see what my ear tells me.
What I'm curious about is if I should use the chord as the basis for
spelling of the scale?
If you are thinking in terms of chord-scale relationships of the type
where the scale is built from the root of the chord (there are other
types of chord-scale relationships, btw, like George Russell's system)
then, yes, that is the norm.

So if I'm over a B7alt which is obviously spelled B D# F# A
Actually, the chord symbol "B7alt" denotes a B7 chord in which any 5th
(if included in the voicing) would be either b5 or #5, and any added 9th
would be b9 and/or #9, any added 11th would be #11, and any added 13th
would be b13.
It's really a dom7 shell voicing (1 3 b7) peppered to taste with b9, #9,
b5/#11, and/or #5/b13.

then do I use
those notes for the enharmonic spelling of the scale(so atleast the chord
tones match up right)?
There is no 100% correct way to spell the altered dominant scale.
The closest correct spelling is to just spell it as superlocrian (i.e.
as a melodic minor scale from the 7th degree), but that will obfuscate
it role over a dom7alt chord.

So if I have something like B%7 - B7alt then the spelling would
change(technically alteast) over each chord?
"Each chord"?

Keep in mind that the chord symbol "B7alt" is not a chord voicing.
Several chord voicings are possible based upon this chord symbol.



(first using flattened version
and second using sharped version)
What I'm trying to understand is if in the locrian +2 scale I need to be
conscious of the direction of the +2?
FYI
The scale normally called "locrian #2" (a locrian scale with a raised 2nd
degree) is
1 2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7
B C# D Eb F G A
Starting on B, as above, it's really the 6th rotation of D mel minor.
Some texts might also call this "locrian n2", i.e. a locrian scale with a
maj 2nd rather than a min 2nd. But "locrian #2" is more common and more
standardized.
This is not the one I am originally talking about though.
Right. But hopefully you understand the naming conventions in the system
I've been describing to you. I.e. "Locrian #2" usually means taking the
type of scale degree 2 normally found in a locrian scale (a min 2nd
above the tonic) and raising it one semitone. This is different than the
naming convention used in your book. In jazz circles, the system I've
been describing is much more prevalent.



Obviously I'm sure that its not a law but seems that the "scales" locrian
+2 and locrian b3 are different from what I have learned about altered
intervals. (sharped intervals want to rise and flattened intervals want
to fall) So is this why they say locrian +2 instead of locrian b3? Are
they telling me the function here or are they just telling me the note.
I know someone is going to say something like "Use your ears" but that
has nothing to do with what I'm asking:
"but it now functions as a #2"
Every book on these altered scales says something like this... they call
it a b3 but then say "it functions as a +2"... which is it? It can't be
both! or can it? And if it can then why make the distinction and then
why even mention the b3 in the first place?
i.e. it either can be both or it can't... if it can then theres no reason
to say "but it now functions as a #2" and if it can't there is no reason
to say the alternative(cause there aren't any). Its either a +2, a b3,
or both.... but they always mix up this logic with first acting like its
both and then acting like its only one and then both and then one.......
It drives me nuts cause it seems like an important point to know if you
want to properly use the scale. (ultimately I guess your ears will tell
you what sounds right but in that case ultimately we wouldn't need scales
at all).
Thanks,
Jon
In chord-scale relationships in which the chord has a maj 3rd and the
scale has a min 3rd, the min 3rd is usually seen as functioning as T#9 on
the chord.
ok, but can you elaborate on this? I'm trying to see what you mean by
functioning as a #9 instead of a b3. Are you saying that simply because the
maj3rd is in the harmony and you can't have both a b3 and a n3? so by
default you are just calling it a #9? Or to your ears does it sound like a
+2 rather than a b3?
Thanks,
Jon
Chord symbol notation is based, mostly, on the idea that each chord
symbol is defined by a stock voicing based on a stack of 3rds.
C literally means C E G.
C7 literally means C E G Bb.
C9 literally means C E G Bb D.
C11 literally means C E G Bb D F.
C13 literally means C E G Bb D F A.

*But* musicians *always* voice their chords according to the needs of
the music.
Examples:

· When encountering a C11 chord symbol a player will omit the maj 3rd
because it clashes with the 11th. [For this reason, if a writer knows
what he's doing he'll write C9sus4 rather than C11.]

· Most jazz players omit the 5th form most chord voicings most of the time.

· 9ths, 11ths and 13ths do *not* need to be placed in the upper regions
of a chord voicing. Sometimes they are placed lower and form clusters
with their closest chord-tone neighbor.

So, if we have the idea that we are playing on a B7 chord and we are
using the note D nat melodically, we usually refer to the D as an added
tone *above the main body of the chord* via a compound interval (an ...

read more »

I'm probably just showing my ignorance here, but if the Locrian mode's
2nd is raised 1 degree

It's raised one semitone.

that's not the Locrian mode any more but
something else, isn't it?

Right. It's a "locrian #2 scale", not a "locrian scale".
The convention is similar to the way that natural minor and harmonic minor (a nat min scale with raised 7th) are both called "minor scales".

Within the community of musicians who like to give these types of scales names, there are certain conventions. The names are only standardized in that they are popular and well-understood within the community.

• Scales that have maj 3rds, perf 4ths, and maj 7ths, tend to be labeled as Ionian variants. Jazz guys use these scales on maj7 chords or maj7 chords with altered 5ths. Eg. Ionian, Ionian Augmented, etc.

• Scales that have maj 3rds, aug 4ths, and maj 7ths, tend to be labeled as Lydian variants. Jazz guys use these scales on maj7 chord or maj7 chords with altered 5ths. Eg. Lydian, Lydian Augmented, etc.

• Scales with maj 3rds, perf 4ths, and min 7ths tend to be labeled as Mixolydian variants. Eg. Mixolydian, Mixolydian b6, Mixolydian b2 b6, etc. Jazz players use these scales over dominant 7th chords and altered dom7 chords on which the perf 4th is the preferred color tone rather than the raised 4th.

• Scales with b3, 6 and b7 are usually labeled as some sort of Dorian variant. Eg. Dorian, Dorian b2, etc. Jazz players use these over min7 chord in which the maj 13th is a suitable color tone.

• Scales with b2, 5, b6 and b7 are usually labelled as some sort of a Phrygian variant. Eg. Phrygian, Phrygian Major.

• Scales with b3, b5, and b7 are usually labeled as some sort of Locrian variant. Eg. Locrian, Locrian #2, etc. These scales are usually used over min7b5 chords.

No-one would call a major scale with a
raised 2nd degree major, would they?

If I ever wanted to name that scale I'd call it "Ionian #2" or "major #2".

Actually strike that - have a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locrian_mode
- seems this term is quite well-understood, although if keeping the
name but changing the spelling is what's important then why not call
the harmonic minor the Major b3 b6 Mode?



--
Joey Goldstein
http://www.joeygoldstein.com
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/joeygoldstein
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca
.

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