Re: Chord connection


"Abstract Dissonance" <Abstract.Dissonance@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message


heh... 72 measure rest? isn't that probably about 5+ mins avg? that kinda
sucks ;/

Yes - it sucked.



I wonder if counting becomes a subconscious habit after you practice it
enough? (i.e., your brain counts but you do not really have to think
about it)

I think so. If we were talking about 10 measures in a classical piece,
I'd have to count them if it wasn't a "normal" repetitive structure
piece. In pop tunes where I know how long the chorus is, I don't even
bother to count, I just know when it's - 3 - 2- 1 Back in. Depends on lot
on the regularity, predictability, and familiarity with the piece.


and because there are sometimes cues too?


Yeah - musical patterns - you know, you hear the Final Cadence you know
you're at the end of a section,etc.


[snip]


But you said that dynamics are the least likely to be related to meter so
I'd assume that there would be a most likely one too.

Sorry, I realized you might have inferred that from that and didn't say
anything. I was more trying to say that Dynamic is not as big as you're
making it.

You did mention
harmonic accent as being very important. Obviously there has to be
something at some point in time if there is to be any meter at all. I'm
not talking about being able to figure out the meter at every single point
without context but just in general. Obviously if the music is just
percussive then harmonic accents don't have any play in the meter.

Then repetitive patterns might instead.

In CPP
there you say that harmonic accents is usually what determines meter and
I'm just trying to clarify if this is what I should focus on at this
point(since I need somewhere to start).

Ok, there's you're problem. You don't focus on any one of them - you listen
for all of them. In measure 1 it might be dynamic, in measure 2 harmonic, in
measure three articulations, and so on. Usually though of course it's a
combination.

Like if I'm going to listen to a random piece
of CPP music what would be my best bet to determine the meter? I assume
its harmonic accents(= harmonic changes?)?

Everything. It's like a murder case. You can't see a dead guy on the floor
and be looking for a gun. It might have been a knife, or poison, or
accident, even if the gun us laying there on the floor too. You have to look
at all of the evidence combined and see what it tells you (sorry, watching
too many murder mysteries lately).


I know there are a lot of other
factors involved and sometimes they are contradictory but surely there are
some that are more important than others(which you have already said when
you said that dynamic accents are not that important).

No, I would say they are constantly shifting in importance - just like a V
chord in the middle of a phrase has a different importance than a V chord at
a half cadence. At one point in time, a dynamic might be the most important
element (though again it will often be supported by other things). At
another point in thime it might be a pattern. Just depends.


[snip]

ok. Well, I might be using meter in the wrong sense.

Yikes! Meter is simply the grouping of stressed (S) and unstressed (W)
pulses.


heh... and? that definition doesn't seem to help much... what is stress
and what is unstress?

"Stress" is importance given to a musical event because of some aspect it
has that is different then surrounding events. If it is louder, the stress
is caused by a dynamic accent, and so on. However, it is understood that
meter by itself (say counting without playing music) can be *thought* of in
stressed and unstressed patterns - ONE two THREE four, etc.



It seems contraditory because during a silence one is
suppose to still feel the "pulse" yet there surely is not stress
involved(atleast external due to musical reasons because there is no music
during the silience).

Right. In that case a musical event (silence) does not agree with the pulse.
But if you have the pattern
Note Rest Note Note Note Rest Note Note Note Rest Note Note what's the
meter? The rest can still fall on a pulse (beat, but it's an unaccented
beat) but the grouping suggests 4/4 or possibly 2/4. Sure you could FORCE it
to be 3/4 but in real music, you'd need something else (other than event
grouping) to be able to hear that - if you just clap this pattern you'll
probably hear 4/4 without anyway.
If you go: Note Rest Rest Note Note Rest Rest Note Note Rest Rest Note,
you'll probably hear 4/4 still even though now there's a rest on a stressed
beat. The PATTERN needs to be 4.


The only thing I can thing of is that 99.9%(maybe less but its just a
guess) of people that can recognize meter only do it by comparision with
memorization of feeling from known meter. i.e., they are told this piece
is in simple duple and they are able to internalize that feeling and then
when they hear another piece they can do a comparision in some way to say
if its simple duple or not.

Maybe - never thought of it that way. We do try to understand things by
comaparing unkown things to known things.

[snip]

right. I understand all that. Its just simple mathematics basically. What
I don't understand is how to "hear" or "feel" or "realize" or whatever
what is the stressed beats(which if I can figure out the stressed beats
then I surely can figure out the unstressed beats). (which means that I'm
also not able to implement meter in my music... atleast not in any natural
way)

The downbeat is stressed in any meter, whether there's an event on that beat
or not (that is, once the meter is up and running in the piece, 1 is a
stressed beat).
In binary divisions (pair of quarter notes, or 8th notes, etc. worth of
time) the first of the pair is the accented beat/division. In 4/4
1
1 3
1 2 3 4
1 + 2 + 3 + 4 +
etc.
In ternary divisions, it's S W W.


[snip]


hmm... Maybe there are two different concepts I'm talking about here.
"Local Meter" and "Global Meter". We talk about the meter of a
piece(analogous to key) but there is also "local meter"(analogous to
modulation I guess).

That is a reasonable analogy.

Is
it possible to determine "local meter" analytically or is it some "blury"
thing that different people might give different answers?

We don't really consider local meter though. We might say in a piece that's
"globally" in 3/4, that there's two bars with a duple feeling, but that's
the extent of it. There are terms like Hemiola which over the span of 2
measures of 3/4, the quarter notes are grouped (tied or syncopated) so it
sounds like 3 measures of 2/4 (or one giant measure of 3/2). So rather than
saying we've changed meter for two bars, we say it's a hemiola figure. Other
words like syncopation are used (which basically means putting notes or
stresses where they normally aren't) when the musical events don't agree
with the global meter. but in CPP music, if there's a meter change it is
generally coupled with an actual new meter signature.


[snip]



well, it is for me? I'm just trying to figure out if the reasons things
sound "good" is only because my brain can make "sense" of it or if there
are some external musical factors that make it sound good(maybe both or
maybe neither).

Good is an entirely subjective term. I do not think Brocooli is good. My son
does. There's no inherent quality in Broccoli that makes it good or bad in
and of itself. The factors that make it bad for me might be the same ones
that make it good for my son. Granted we are more comfortable with things we
know and understand, so if you can't make sense of something, your dislike
might be because of your uneasiness in being able to understand it. but if
you take the time to understand it without fear, then you'll be comfortable
with it.

I've always thought that things sound good because they are are
representations of musical "laws" but it seems I might be creating that
illusion(not intentionally ofcourse).

it is an illusion. You, like many other people are not doing it
intentionally because it's ingrained in our cultures. Things sound good
because we're used to them, and taught to expect them, and are satisfied
when they get them. I expect a pizza sauce to be thick and tangy and I think
it's good and I'm satisfied when it is. Watery and bland are not for me. I
think there's a cultural norm that might say pizza sauce should be thick and
tangy rather than watery, so MOST people agree on what's good based on
popular tastes. If the popular taste is for singable melodies, then
unsingable melodies won't be considered "good". They are not good or bad in
themselves, but, the general populous does have an influence on what we
generally consider good or bad. The trick is to be able to step out of the
cultural norms and say, do I like this beacause I like it, or because
everyone else likes it and I think I'm supposed to too. There are no laws to
good or bad, or general norms for established syles.


for example,

http://www.johnsadowski.com/big_spanish_castle.html

These things make me feel that my "ear" does the same sorta "tricks" but I
don't realize it and that I assume things that are not true(like that the
castle is in color when its not(even though in this case once you move
your eyes it will go back to black and white).

Ok. This is something that is designed to take advantage of a peculiarity in
the way our rods and cones and optic nerve works. There are aural illusions
too - one I know of involves using two pitches in a mathemetical
relationship that makes it sound like they are always going higher in pitch.
But they're not.

A regular painting is not designed with such intent. It's just a picture.
Music is the same way. There's no trickery there. Now artists and composers
will of course hide secret images in there, are give you ambiguous things,
but they have to be culturally or stylistically established for you to "get
the joke". Otherwise though, music is not taking advantage of any of you
auditory perception's flaws.

[snip]


Are you basically saying I should play all meter types and division types?

Absolutely.

Thats usually what I do when I practice with the metronome. Sometimes I
mix it up and play, say a triplet on one beat then 16ths on the next.

Good.

I try,
but not often, to try to play rests too... so maybe I play the first and
3rd division of a triplet but not on the second(or tie over the first note
into the second).

That's good too.

I usually do scalar melodies iwth this though as its the
easiest...


Screw that. Sit ther and clap. Get the pitch element out of there. Break it
down to it's essential element - a sound - not a pitched sound necessarily.

sometimes I try to just play random notes but with specific
rhythms. I don't do it much and I need to practice it much more though.

Practice is always good.


Usually I end up practicing scales though at 16th notes and try to build
up my speed... bad habit though. (I usually don't count though unless its
something really hard that I have to slow down).

That's fine for practicality of playing scale in music. But playing scales
works on scales. You want to work on rhtyhm so you need to play rhythms.
Ignore the pitch aspect when you're working on rhythm. Put them together
later.

[snip]

Ok, I'll try that soon. I'll need to reread what your saying just to make
sure I got it right. I think that a systematic way of practicing like
this is usually much better. I tend to just practice whatever I feel like
at the moment(so its not really practice I guess).

It's practice, but not directed practice - which, if you have an area that's
week, you need to do.

Later,
Steve



.

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