Re: Chord connection


"Steve Latham" <llatham@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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"Abstract Dissonance" <Abstract.Dissonance@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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[snip]

yeah. I can to that too do some degree but only on a limited number of
beats. I guess its just practice practice practice. Like sometimes I
loose track in counting but I know when the 1's coming for some reason
even though I've completely forgot where I was.

I used to play percussion in band, and we'd typically have things like 32
measures rest, one note, 72 measures rest, one note, 16 measures rest,
etc. I got used to counting long stretches like that. Sometimes, the music
is pretty obvious and if you lose your place, you can get back on. Other
times in "washy" slow movements it was quite easy to lose track - that's
why the conductor cues you!


heh... 72 measure rest? isn't that probably about 5+ mins avg? that kinda
sucks ;/


I wonder if counting becomes a subconscious habit after you practice it
enough? (i.e., your brain counts but you do not really have to think
about it)

I think so. If we were talking about 10 measures in a classical piece, I'd
have to count them if it wasn't a "normal" repetitive structure piece. In
pop tunes where I know how long the chorus is, I don't even bother to
count, I just know when it's - 3 - 2- 1 Back in. Depends on lot on the
regularity, predictability, and familiarity with the piece.


and because there are sometimes cues too?


[snip]

Yeah, that's what it sounds like to me. Dynamic accents are probably the
LEAST likely to tell you the meter (other than the subtle ones like
playing the downbeat a little touch louder).


oh? Is there a main one I need to know? (I suppose its different for
different music and probably for CPP is harmony?)

Have you not been reading? My point has been that volume is just one type
of accent. If there's a "main" one to know, it's Pattern. When patterns
repeat. But patterns are created by various means, so within that, you
need to know all of them. All of those I've listed previously can be more
or less important depending on what's going on. For instance, as you've
noted, a dynamic accent only becomes important in the absence of other
info. Articulation (which some people migh consider a dynamic type, and
some articulations affect duration, etc.) can be used in the absence of
other info. So it just depends on the context. You basically have to look
at a passage and say, what elements are providing accents at this point?
Sometimes, there can be absolutely nothing except a previously established
meter, so the "accents" don't even have to be present!


But you said that dynamics are the least likely to be related to meter so
I'd assume that there would be a most likely one too. You did mention
harmonic accent as being very important. Obviously there has to be
something at some point in time if there is to be any meter at all. I'm not
talking about being able to figure out the meter at every single point
without context but just in general. Obviously if the music is just
percussive then harmonic accents don't have any play in the meter. In CPP
there you say that harmonic accents is usually what determines meter and I'm
just trying to clarify if this is what I should focus on at this point(since
I need somewhere to start). Like if I'm going to listen to a random piece
of CPP music what would be my best bet to determine the meter? I assume its
harmonic accents(= harmonic changes?)? I know there are a lot of other
factors involved and sometimes they are contradictory but surely there are
some that are more important than others(which you have already said when
you said that dynamic accents are not that important).

Its not that I'm trying to simplify it to a text book type of answer but I
need something to grab onto so I can get a grip on "feeling" meter in a
analytical sense instead of just guessing(maybe the real answer is just to
develope a cultivated sense of guessing?). I just don't like to be unsure
and rely on my feelings because a lot of the time it is wrong.


[snip]


ok. Well, I might be using meter in the wrong sense.

Yikes! Meter is simply the grouping of stressed (S) and unstressed (W)
pulses.


heh... and? that definition doesn't seem to help much... what is stress and
what is unstress? It seems contraditory because during a silence one is
suppose to still feel the "pulse" yet there surely is not stress
involved(atleast external due to musical reasons because there is no music
during the silience).

The only thing I can thing of is that 99.9%(maybe less but its just a guess)
of people that can recognize meter only do it by comparision with
memorization of feeling from known meter. i.e., they are told this piece is
in simple duple and they are able to internalize that feeling and then when
they hear another piece they can do a comparision in some way to say if its
simple duple or not.

Meter works on multiple levels simultaneously. For instance, modern Meter
Signatures give us two bits of grouping info: How the Beats are grouped,
and how the divisions of the Beat are grouped.

If the Beats are S W W S W W than it's triple meter.
If the division is s w w s w w s w w, per S or W above, then it's
compound, so:
S W W S W W
sww sww sww sww sww sww

Is triple compound, and

S W W S W W
sw sw sw sw sw sw

is triple simple.

Then obviously we use the numbers to give us specific note values.



right. I understand all that. Its just simple mathematics basically. What I
don't understand is how to "hear" or "feel" or "realize" or whatever what is
the stressed beats(which if I can figure out the stressed beats then I
surely can figure out the unstressed beats). (which means that I'm also not
able to implement meter in my music... atleast not in any natural way)




It sounds like me that
its similar to how tonality works. You can establish the tonic then
tonicize another tonic but it doesn't really change the tonic.

Right, as I was explaining before. It's not a 1:1 correlation, but there
certainly is the idea that once the Meter is established, it generally
stays the "main" meter throughout the piece.


But we are talking about CPP? Surely this statement is false in modern
music such as dream theater?

Only to a degree. For instance, Dream Theater and Tool and Rush and bands
like that usually still set up some kind of pattern. The meter at the
beginning of Rush's Subdivisions is 7/8, then when the lyrics start it's
4/4. Dream Theater does a lot of "add-a beat" phrases - for instance,
they'll be in 4/4 and then at the end of the 4th phrase, they'll add one
8th note to make the last measure 9/8 (4.5/4 if you like). Sometimes bands
do alternating meters - Pink Floyd's Money is ofter heard as alternating
3/4 and 4/4 (though you could hear the two measures as one of 7/4). So
yes, there's some variability there, but generally speaking, the meter is
usually maintained for stretches of times, changed for only one measure,
or changed in a recurring pattern, all of which create patterns in
themselves, which help you find your place. Modern bands (at least those
that get any significant airplay) don't really do like Stravinsky where
there's a different meter practically every measure. In Stravinsky, the
meter is changing so much you never get a chance to hear a consistent
pattern so you can never really tell what it is - you have to see the
music. But that's part of the point of writing it that way - there are
little surprises in there.


hmm... Maybe there are two different concepts I'm talking about here. "Local
Meter" and "Global Meter". We talk about the meter of a piece(analogous to
key) but there is also "local meter"(analogous to modulation I guess). Is
it possible to determine "local meter" analytically or is it some "blury"
thing that different people might give different answers?

[snip]



damnit ;/ So my brain is playing "tricks"(I suppose those tricks are
necessary though). I "feel" that it sounds wrong because of some
inherent musical reason but in reality it doesn't sound right only
because I'm comparing it with what I think sounds right and it doesn't
match up properly?

Possibly - and what you think sounds right isn't really right.


well, it is for me? I'm just trying to figure out if the reasons things
sound "good" is only because my brain can make "sense" of it or if there are
some external musical factors that make it sound good(maybe both or maybe
neither). I've always thought that things sound good because they are are
representations of musical "laws" but it seems I might be creating that
illusion(not intentionally ofcourse).

for example,

http://www.johnsadowski.com/big_spanish_castle.html

These things make me feel that my "ear" does the same sorta "tricks" but I
don't realize it and that I assume things that are not true(like that the
castle is in color when its not(even though in this case once you move your
eyes it will go back to black and white).



[snip]

I'm wondering if there is a metronome studies book that has a bunch of
things like this?


I can't imagine there being one. Maybe percussion books.

The best thing to do is the following:

Take some graph paper, and count each box as a 16th note. Highlight 4 in a
row, a different color for each beat (do 4/4 to start). Repeat as many
times as the paper allows complete measures. You may mark off a measure
with a vertical line or something (and also the beats with a lighter or
shorter line, etc. so like marks on a ruler).

Color in black the first box of each measure. (so you're playing a 16th
note on the downbeat of each measure).
On Row 2, color in the first box of Beat 1 and Beat 3.
On row 3, 1,2,3,4
(so basically you're reducing the instance of an event happening by half
16 units apart, then 8 units apart, then 4 units apart, etc.)

Now what you just did was play One note per measure, then two notes per
measure.

Row three is the next plane down: One note per BEAT.
Now you need two notes per beat, so row 4 is colored boxes on box 1 and 3
of each beat ( so you're playing on the first and third 16th of the
measure, which equates to 2 8th notes.

Row four is sometimes considered the next plane down, the DIVISION. Row
four represents one note per division, and roe Five will be two notes per
division (or this level is also consider sub-division). Obviously when you
do this all four boxes per beat (or rather, all of the boxes in the row)
will be filled in.

You should hopefully realize that you can extend these planes up or down
and "shift" them to different values. You can even do what's called
"hyper-meter" where, "bigger" than one note per measure, is one note per
"phrase" ( a phrase being 4 measures). So you see you've got 4 measure
phrases, 4 beat measures, and 4 part sub-divisions (16th notes) each of
which can be divided into 2 notes per each of those units, keeping a duple
(quadruple) simple binary system going.

You should try to play these. But, with and without a metronome. When
using the metronome, you should set the click at various levels - for
instance, set it on 8th notes, and play all of the values related to that.
Then set it to quarters and play all of the levels related to it - it's
important while you're doing this to be thinking "the metronome is
clicking measures, and I'm currently playing 4 beats per measure, or
quarter notes.


Are you basically saying I should play all meter types and division types?
Thats usually what I do when I practice with the metronome. Sometimes I mix
it up and play, say a triplet on one beat then 16ths on the next. I try,
but not often, to try to play rests too... so maybe I play the first and 3rd
division of a triplet but not on the second(or tie over the first note into
the second). I usually do scalar melodies iwth this though as its the
easiest... sometimes I try to just play random notes but with specific
rhythms. I don't do it much and I need to practice it much more though.
Usually I end up practicing scales though at 16th notes and try to build up
my speed... bad habit though. (I usually don't count though unless its
something really hard that I have to slow down).

When you count, it's best to count at least one division smaller than what
you're playing, or better, 4 units for each note played (at least until it
gets too small to be practical to count)- in other words, if you're
playing quarter notes, it's best to count 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and, or even
better to count 1 e A a 2 e A a 3 e A a 4 e A a. Again, you need to be
thinking "I'm playing quarter notes and counting at the sub-division level
of 16ths".

This is where people mess up - they simply play the 2:1 (or 4:1, etc.)
relationships but they have no idea at what plane (Measure, Beat,
Sub-Division, etc.) they're playing or counting.


ok. I think I see what you mean. I usually focus on the beat... and just
play divisions of it but I rarely thing about the meter unless I'm trying to
improvise over a progression and I want to coordinate my notes with the
harmonic change(which I tend to have one chord per bar). I definately am not
ablet o thing at the phrase level yet but I suppose that just takes some
time and practice.



After you do this, you get a second piece of graph paper (or turn this
one upside-down and play from the bottom up :-) and start with a box on
beat 3 of the first measure (or third measure of 4 if you go up to hyper
measure). Then you put on row 2, a colored box on beats 2 and 4. The next
row will be on 8th notes 2 and 4 - in other words, whereas the first one
was Down beat and secondary accents (1 and, 1 and 3) of Measures, Beats,
and Divisions, etc. this will be the unaccented parts (if you overlayed
the two graphs, you're now filling in boxes half-way between those on the
previous page).

After you do this, you can start experimenting with playing on 1 and 2 of
each level. Like a note on measure 1 a note on measure 2, then two
measures rest; a note on beats 1 and 3, and then rest next measure. A note
on beats 1 and 2 then two beats rest. Notes on 8th notes 1 and 2 (or beats
"1" and the "and after 1") and two 8th notes rest.

As you do these, you should start to see how patterns like Dotted
Quarter-Eighth are the same as Dotted Half-Quarter (half of that) or
Dotted Eighth-Sixteenth (double of that). Oh, and most importantly, it is
ESSENTIAL you learn to notate what you're playing. FAR too many musicians
can play rhythms by ear but have no idea of what values they're using
(they don't know what durations to use, OR what plane they're on!).


Ok, I'll try that soon. I'll need to reread what your saying just to make
sure I got it right. I think that a systematic way of practicing like this
is usually much better. I tend to just practice whatever I feel like at the
moment(so its not really practice I guess).

You can actually use this graph paper idea to figure out complex rhythms
by marking the 16th note boxes in which sounds occur while listening to
something (assuming you can follow the 16th note background) and realize,
hey, they play on the 3rd, 7th, and 12th sixteenth of the measure. Then
you can use this to notate the rhythm (at least where the notes fall, if
not their durations, which should be worked on too).


I have a book about drum programming and it sorta uses this idea to notate
the rhythms and drum instruments. I think its similar "style" to what you
are talking about but your method seems to be a systematic approach to play
all rhythms(or the building blocks of rhythms).


Thanks,
Jon


.

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