Re: Music school -- Re: Following the music from 'full score' ?


"¤ Alias" <.@.> wrote in message
news:v0b8i1p9s8accb99ks1tccfucmsbtakeir@xxxxxxxxxx
> On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 12:50:46 GMT, "Matthew Fields" <spam@xxxxxxx>
> wrote:
>
>>The benefit of full-time music school is an environment in which you
>>can do these sorts of studies in high-paced concentration, with some
>>of the best minds in the fields on your payroll. If you're content to
>>gradually pick at these sorts of studies along the way, in 25 or 30
>>years of spare-time study you can pick up everything you might get out
>>of 4 years of music school...and have all sorts of other experiences
>>at the same time. Students in music school are going to partition
>>their experiences differently in time. So you choose which kind of
>>pacing and scheduling works for you.
>
> I'm still working out in my mind the ramifications of Steve Latham's
> reply. (i.e. I'm at least considering the posssibility of enrolling in
> a music school)
>
> I honestly didn't expect Steve to suggest that - and have been going
> over in my mind just why it is that I feel I'm 'Glad I never went'.

The way I see it D, is why limit yourself? As I was saying to someone else,
if you go for a formal education, there's no reason you can't also pursue
self study as well. It's like I'm trying to point out in the
tonality/atonality threads - why limit oneself to just tonality? Why not
learn both and decide which you need when? It's like all these guitar
players I see in the music store who can play these insane two handed
tapping chordal arrangements, but when you show up to a gig and you want to
play a 12-bar blues, they can't even play along. I don't think there's
anything wrong with concentrated study, but some things, like performance or
composition seem to benefit from more influences, rather than less (as long
as things are chosen well).

>
> I suppose that one of my objections was that the musicians I respect
> and admire didn't go to school,and the other side of the coin is, rare
> is the artist who went to Berklee or GIT or the New School (NY) who
> ever produced anything during their careers I found valuable.( I can
> only think of one - John Scofield - Jazz guitarist and Berklee
> Graduate. )

If you only want to play Jazz, that's fine. I had a guitar student who came
in and felt he could play all the Rock he could (he couldn't but he was
young), and said "what else is there?". I said "what about classical". After
study classical with me, and then finding out he like to compose along the
way (so you see, I could teach rock, classical, and composition), he began
composing for piano and guitar, was accepted to Princeton, got his degree
and is now a mamber of a prominent composers group. Had he stuck with "rock"
guitar I don't know if he would have been as satisfied as he is, and still,
to this day, he and I can still sit down and play through a Zep tune and
have lots of fun doing it. Learning to drive a car does not mean one forgets
how to ride a bike (and I'm not implying that one of two (or many) things in
this relationship have to be better or more complex than the other).

>
> I also fear 'cookie cutter' education-by-rote turning out scores of
> mediocrities who hang out their shingles after college and just teach
> the same thing THEY were taught - then the student follows suit and
> does the same -endless cycle.

You're going to do that anyway. How many Mozart Symphonies are really well
known today. In fact, how many MOVEMENTs are known, scratch that, how many
FIRST THEMES are known? Id' say more people in the average public have heard
Glass (becuase of The Hours) than Scofield (and if you see him, tell him to
turn of that damn chorus effect). Most things are mediocre. There are very
few Zosos, Abbey Roads, Blow by Blows, Water Musics, Four Seasons, Rites of
Springs, etc. out there. And to be honest, that doesn't happen at a good
institution. Educators are a resource, just like anything else. They offer
you their EXPERIENCE, they should not be "teaching" you "what they do". An
example is, one of our composition professors is currently having me record
one of his works for his orchestration class to show them what he did WRONG
in the piece. OK, he's admitting that he is still learning himself (which
one should never stop learning), and he's not telling them what to do, but
from experience, what not to do. So educators are like shortcuts - they've
done all the trial and error for you (which is why you want ones with lots
of relevant experiences in their field) so you can suck up soime of their
experiences and decide for yourself what you want to use.

> I do not consider either you or Steve (or the other posters here) to
> be these kind of people, I really don't wish to offend anyone in rmt -
> the folks here are really top notch- but ....I don't know.....I see
> ads in the village voice for music instruction all the time like
> "Former GIT (Guitar institute of technology) student giving lessons
> $15 per hour" or Berklee grad accepting students call 555-5555.

If someone's teaching for less than 25 an hour they're probably not worth
anything. And, many people can graduate. That doesn't mean they were top of
their class. Also, there's a difference between a guitar teacher and a
person who's teaching guitar becuase they can't get a gig (becuase they
either suck, are too limited, are an a hole, etc.) You just have to be
selective. I don't mean to sound snobby, but a university is typically going
to hire people of a different caliber than a community college. That doesn't
mean it will be that way (there certainl exceptions on both sides).

>
> Where's the artistry, what lessons did they really learn?

Really depends on the person.

>
> Not one of them could blow a hole through my soul the way Robert
> Johnson can. (Just to give one example). It just reminds me of
> something Theoreau said - (paraphrasing)" Our universities produce
> many Philosophy professors but no Philosophers"

That's true to a degree, but the exceptions tend to be exceptional. There
are going to be people who "just do their job" in any field. But again I'm
not limiting to school versus self taught. I'm saying, why not do both - and
anything else you can for that matter!

>
> I started taking piano lessons at 36 years old. Much to my suprise, my
> teacher thought I was extremely talented ( I couldn't play piano
> proper, but I was inherently musical ). Now, I just applied for
> lessons as - well, not a lark, but I liked to listen to Bach and
> thought it might be fun to learn to play piano.
> So, next thing I know, (2 lessons in) he's preparing me to give
> recitals,talking to me about what clothes to wear at said showcases ,
> how to develop a varied repoitiore [sp] and asking for 4 hrs./day
> minimum practice.
>
> I balked. Something inside me said "NO NO NO!!!!" maybe I couldn't
> handle the pressure,maybe I didn't even UNDERSTAND the pressure - who
> knows....

Bad teacher. Your goal should not be to present recitals. Your goal in
learning piano should be, wait for it.... to learn piano! You're paying for
the lessons. Now, teachers do have experience, but I know very good teacher
who produce very good students who will not let them play Bartok because of
their musical tastes. Not allowing a student to work on Stravinsky's
Serenade in La because they are not technically, artistically, or mentally
not up to the challenge is one thing, but forcing Bach Haydn Mozart and
Beethoven on students to churn out Classical Romantic Drones is not good
either.

>
> I remember during our first session he asked "What do you hope to get
> out of playing Bach?"
>
> I replied " Well, I'd like to extrapolate some of his ideas and for my
> own use"
>
> He stared at me as if I'd just arrived from another planet.

Bad Teacher.

>
> So... I don't know...maybe only I can be my own teacher ....I know how
> to read, I know how to learn maybe it wont take 25 -30 years

I've done a lot myself D, but I realized I couldn't just start with
Beethoven or Mozart - I had to start with Clementi Sonatinas (I did take
formal lessons when I was young) and I've dabbled with Mozart and B, but
I've gotten Haynd and they are a nice bridge between Clementi and Mozart.
The secret is figuring ot a reasonable order in which to aquire skills and
knowledge - this is what a teacher's experience can do for you. It's like
poor Jon S here - we all started yelling at him to get a teacher, but
practical matters have prevented him from doing so, and he's learning on his
own, and from us (hopefully :-) ), but becuase it's all over the place,
there are skills he could use that he hasn't encounterd yet because he
hasn't asked the question that would breach that subject. What a good formal
education will give you is a pedagogical (logically ordered) approach where
you actually do encounter A and B before trying to tackle C. It's like those
kids who come in to me and want to learn a Tool song in 12/8 and they don't
even know how to count 4/4/ yet.

>
> I really DON'T KNOW.
> But I am thinking about it(school).

What I would say D, is do some research. Think about what you want to get
out of it, and see if you can find something that offers that or a
significant portion of it. There's no law that says you can't be enrolled at
two institutions at once even. If you have a University (or more than one)
convenient, check into their people. See what they do - for instance, we've
got one professor who is a contemporary music juggernaut, and an organ
professor who's very respected. But one's a theory and piano professor, the
other is a history and organ professor. But if you just looked at what
classes they teach, and what instruments they play, you might not realize
how good these cats actually are.

Again, if you're not keeling over tomorrow, you've got time to think about
it. But you get out of it what you demand out of it, and what you put into
it. Don't walk in telling someone I want to do this and I'm going to do it
my way. You go in and say, I'd like to do this, and the person will say,
why, and if you give them a reasonable answer, then they will tell you how,
if they were going to do it, how they'd go about it, and guide you, and if
you don't give them a reasonable answer, then they should offer some
suggestions and explore your skills and help choose the right path on which
to guide you for short and long term goals. Ok, Run on sentence.

Best,

Steve


.

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