Re: OT Pa. Man Fires Cannonball Into Neighbor's House

Yes, I agree with much you say - except it's not "thinking" as we know
it. I don't think they have a mind as we think of a mind - otherwise,
they would understand their mortality.

Chimps will use tools - a stick to get ants out of a mound. This
shows some kind of advanced brain function - except, they do it by
immitation from other chimps.

My Dad was devoted to our dog and she devoted to him, but when he died
suddenly in 1969, there was no "longing" or nobody noticed differnt
behavior in our dog. But if you read the story (or watch the film) of
Greyfriars Bobby, you'll get a differnt slant.

Depends on the animal, I guess - but Bobby lived on the grave of his
master for many years, and every day at noon when the cannon boomed,
he would go to the pub where his master used to take him and get fed.
Then he would return to old Jock's grave in the kirkyard. So there
appears to be "longing" in some but not others.

Could be explained by "sensing" and hearing, though, and we may never
know.

Seems to me that monkeys don't realize they are mortal, either, and
they are our closest relatives (primates). No, we're not descended
from monkeys, but we share a common ancestor. They do display
affection and mourn the loss of their own, though.
--
mad


On Mon, 7 Sep 2009 22:26:18 -0700 (PDT), Richergar
<richergar@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

It's a fascinating discussion.

I believe that animals do 'think'. Not all of them, and not all
equally well, but I do believe that some species pretty clearly think,
and that within a species, for example,
dogs or cats, there are real differences of ability and temperment. I
believe that, in fact, there is a fair amount of opinion in the
community that is not different than mine - several decades ago, the
recieved wisdom was that they did not think. To think means to think a
thought, to hold a thought in one's mind, and I believe that animals
can obviously experience longings and desires and hold simple thought
about them. Certainly animals can experience 'feelings' or affects. It
may be much more complex for dolphins, whales, and some land species.

I do doubt that animals can comprehend certain things - for example, I
don't think that animals can comprehend 'beauty' in the way we can at
least, and I don't think that for the most part animals have self-
consciousness, although I am not so sure about primates. I don't think
a dog or a primate ever thought "Am I beautiful?" or 'Is the female
who is rutting attractive?"

Do remember that aliens coming to Earth and observing us might very
well say that all we had were stimulus-response gradients. Do also
remember that if you spoke in the 50s to a Skinnerian, he or she would
say that we have no minds or thoughts, and that we are simply patterns
of operant conditioning.

There is also a notion of 'mind' that I don't think we fully
understand, but which in my view also applies. If you look at an ant
colony or bee colony or even a settlement of prairie dogs, you get a
sense that there is a governing 'mind' that is represented by the
colony...otherwise there is really no way to explain the phenomena.
There is no way to understand these kinds of social organizations
other than through something that says that the 'colony' is really the
entity.

Best


On Sep 7, 6:54 pm, Mack A. Damia <mybaconbu...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Mon, 07 Sep 2009 14:17:06 -0700, "EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)"





<evgm...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Mack A. Damia wrote:

Read an interesting book a couple of years ago, Julian Jaynes, *The
Origins of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind* .
Theory claims that at one time - not too long ago (prior to, say, 3000
BC, we had a bicameral mind consisting of a schizoprenic "God" side
and a man side".  We acted and behaved on and from voices from the God
side, and we really didn't possess consciousness as we know it today.
Some scholars believe that consciousness is a function of language,

Perhaps you should define "consciousness".  Most animals - certainly all
mammals - are capable of feeling pain (although there was a time when
many veterinarians denied it).  I'm not sure they entirely "live in an
eternal now", as was once believed, either.  (Most of the family cats
and dogs I've known had enough capacity to recognize the passing of time
so that they "knew" when their owners were due home, and would be
waiting to greet their return.)  Many of them also exhibit surprising
ability to reason, when it comes to accomplishing something they want to
do (especially if we prefer they NOT do it)!  However, although many
pets do make sounds to communicate, I don't think it can really be
considered "language".

Is your name really "Gamble"?

My last name is Procter.  We could go into partnership and make soap
or something.

In response to your question, animals are not conscious of themselves
or conscious of their mortality.  This is one of the major differences
between humans and animals.

That's what "consciousness" means in my terminology: aware of one's
mortality.

Why do dogs chase cars?  Roadkill?  They have no idea because they are
not conscious of themselves and the dangers that they expose
themselves to.

Animals may "sense" when death is near, but they are not conscious of
it.  Elephants may go to a special site to die - but it's purely
instinct within their frames of reference - where they live and the
behaviors of others.

Certainly they feel pain, but they don't know how to avoid pain -
unless they get to sense that a rolled up newspaper is going to result
in a swat on the nose or rump.  Stimulus - response.

Pets get a "sense" of their owners and their owner's habits, but it's
not "consciousness"  as we know it. They have a rough biological clock
that lets them know when they are hungry or tired or when their owners
are going to return.  They can recognize certain sounds, too - they
have ears and necessary organs - but they are not conscious  - it's
more stimulus -response.  We used to have a dog that would run and
hide when we said, "bath".  It was just a sound to the dog who
associated it with a rather unpleasant experience as for as she was
concerned.  Stimulus - response.

No, animals cannot reason; reason is a condition requiring
consciousness as we know it.  Again, if animals could reason, dogs
wouldn't chase cars in traffic.

It's stimulus - response and "sensing".

I don't like to force my thoughts, but I've been through this in
graduate philosophy courses, and this is the accepted wisdom.  To me,
it makes sense.  You have a perfect right to think otherwise!

Cheers!
--
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