Re: Gigli & Berger Traviata - Berlin 1936

The problem is that people don't want to deal with the issue. I simply
pointed out on another thread that the Gigli/Berger film took place in the
context of a setting where Jews couldn't be part of the chorus, orchestra,
film 'extras', or even buy a ticket to see the movie, and someone here asked
why I was bringing up "the Jew thing" - I think that was the phrase. Kind of
as if I was spoiling the forgetting party. And I was so clear that I still
appreciated the film, but it had to be seen in context.

Now, let me go out and picket for justice to the Palestinians, with those
uppity Jews once more as the oppressors. You'd think they'd know their place
by now. I particularly enjoy the proposed boycott of Jewish
scholars.....that takes us right back to 1933, or is it 1934? I don't see
anyone protesting about the madrasses, or about the prejudice inherent in
Arab education to women, but let's punish the Jewish scholars. That's a good
one.




"andre35" <andre35@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:qd6dndLKWYZHtKfanZ2dnUVZ_uiknZ2d@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Again? Quantifying degrees of evil? Playing "The Dead Jew Numbers
Game?"
One Jew wasn't too many?
Taken as a group, Europeans have been playing 'Kill the Jew" for
almost 2,000 years.
*** 'em.
On a personal level, *** 'em right back to the first time I saw the
British Army Signal Corps' films of the camps, at age 9.
Read some Jewish History texts, then tell me you're ready to
rate/quantify various European nations by degree of evil.
You know my answer . . . . . . . . . .
André E. Storfer

"stefano" <adlerfh@xxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:1194986239.402033.32780@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
On Nov 13, 1:07 pm, "gerberk" <gerb...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
My dear in Holland close to 90 percent were killed and mostly betrayed
by
dutch informers Those are different numbers all the way Hardly any jews
were
left and those who returned found their houses and belongings robbed by
the
dutch

If i was a jew at that time i would prefer Rome or Milan to Amsterdam
any
day

Viva italia

"stefano" <adle...@xxxxxxx> schreef in
berichtnews:1194978600.105896.84680@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

On Nov 13, 11:43 am, "gerberk" <gerb...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Try Petain France (the collaborators ) for anti jewish sentiments but
never
Mussolini Italy.They found the whole idea repulsive

You were pretty safe in Mussolini Italy as a jew

Viva Italia

On Nov 11, 9:01 am, stefano <adle...@xxxxxxx> wrote:
L.T. should really differentiate between Italy after 1938, and
Italy
before. I have no idea which year this clip is from. Before
1938,
there were precious few anti-Fascists in Italy, gentile or jew.
Fascism went through its violent period during the 1920s, while it
was
establishing a dictatorship. During the 1930s a consensus of
sorts
had been created, thanks to "popular" programs dealing with social
welfare, recreation (dopolavoro), and subsidized vacations and
travel
(especially for children). In 1932, the 10th anniversary of the
regime, most political prisoners were released from jail.
Meanwhile,
the arts were very heavily subsidized without insisting on any
particular aesthetic, unlike Nazi Germany and Stalin's Russia;
Mussolini at the time just wanted artists and intellectuals to be
on
board. Accordingly, intellectuals, particularly young ones,
participated rather enthusiastically, including Jews (e.g.
Bassani).
Marla Stone has written a fine study of this period, called THE
PATRON
STATE, published by Princeton. Everything changed in 1938, with
the
new racial policy and alliance with Germany. I should point out
that
gentile Italian intellectuals and artists demonstrated almost no
solidarity with their Jewish colleagues (I should really use the
word
"friends"), and continued collaborating with the regime until
Mussolini fell from power in July 1942. When the Germans occupied
northern Italy shortly afterward, the Holocaust arrived and
Italians
should be credited with extraordinary helping behavior, which
accounts
for the myth of the "good Italian" (Italiani brave gente). Only
at
this time, did a serious anti-fascist movement emerge, with
intellectuals and artists changing sides, inventing a new
ideologicl
term to designate the enemy "nazi-fascismo," in order to mystify
their
earlier collaboration. After the war, many prominent
anti-fascists
intellectuals tried to bury this 1938-42 period of collaboration,
but
recently historical attention has been focused on these so-called
"redeemed ones." In Italian, Mirella Serri came out with a best
seller on the subject, called I REDENTI (the redeemed). In
English, I
edited a special section (The Fascist Past of Italian
Intellectuals)
which appeared in the Summer 2007 issue of TELOS. Gigli and most
other Italian singers of the period must be situated in this
context;
they were no better or worse than everyone else. I should add
that
Mascagni made a show of supporting the regime because he thought
Mussolini would keep jazz out of Italy, never imagining that one
of
Mussolini's sons acquired the best jazz collection in the country
and
later would become a jazz pianist. But that's another story.

Frank Adler

Jews were hardly safe in Italy after the Nazi's set up a puppet state
(Salo) in the north, with Mussolini little more than a figurehead.
Under the Salo Republic Jes were considered enemy aliens. As such,
their property was seized and they were rounded up in concentration
camps. Though the Salo government tried to get some of the booty, and
insisted that captured Italian Jews should remain on Italian soil,
those who were caught eventually were transported to Nazi death camps
where practically all perished. A great number of Italian Jews were
saved by ordinary Italians, including Fascists and those who worked
for Salo. Some of these, in turn, were sent to Nazi death camps and
killed. However, given the late and relatively brief German
occupation, more Jews perished than one would have predicted, close to
15% of the Jewish population. While it is true that every Italian
Jewish survivor owed his fate to non-Jews who helped, it is also true
that practically all Italian Jews who perished could blame Italian
informers, most of whom were motivated by the prospect of getting a
reward, not ideology, and certainly not eliminationist anti-Semitism.

Yes, but the occupation of Holland began much earlier and covered all
of the country. If we correct for duration and geography, I am not
sure what the difference between Italy and Holland might be. Not to
be misunderstood, Italy is to be credited with wonderful saving
behavior. It is just that the myth of the "good Italian" (Italiani
brave gente) has been greatly qualified by current research.

F.A.






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