Re: Joe Pass - Economy picking

On Dec 6, 4:27 pm, charlieguitar <robinsonch...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Dec 6, 3:59 pm, campfire <lawrc...@xxxxxxx> wrote:





On Dec 1, 9:40 am, charlieguitar <robinsonch...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Dec 1, 8:15 am, TD <tonydecap...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Dec 1, 12:03 am, van <sg...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Nov 30, 11:12 pm, Dan Adler <d...@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Nov 30, 7:04 pm, van <sg...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Nov 30, 6:50 pm, sheetsofsound <jackzuc...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Nov 30, 5:56 pm, TD <tonydecap...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Nov 30, 5:13 pm, sheetsofsound <jackzuc...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Nov 30, 8:27 am, TD <tonydecap...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Nov 30, 4:50 am, ScotGormley <scot.gorm...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Any of you folks ever made a study of Joe's right hand pick technique?
He clearly uses a form of economy picking when moving from lower
strings to higher strings. In one of the REH videos, he also mentions
that he always uses a downstroke when changing strings, but does he
really? To me, it doesn't look like he's always using a dowstroke when
moving from, say, the 1st to the 2nd string.

He also rarely used any type of backward sweeping for arpeggios,
although he does do it here to mimic an O.P. phrase:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Kq5YQpaC1Y&feature=related

 . . . and he seemed to play more scalar (as opposed to arp) based
lines. It also appears that Joe preferred stretch fingerings rather
than shifting back. For example, if playing a G Dorian scale in 3rd
position, he'd reach for the E and A notes on strings 5 and 4, rather
than shifting back to 2nd position for those notes.

He relied on slurring a lot. Other than that he used alternate. I
would not say that he used economy picking per se,

He definitely used economy picking quite a bit. I saw him play many
times up close and had a couple lessons with him.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Is that all? I knew him quite well. We were friends since 1971. I sat
down many times over the years and played tunes with him. He slurred a
lot, but I would not call it out and out economy picking.

It doesn't matter what he called it. He explained to me and also said
in many interviews that whenever he changes strings with the pick he
goes in the direction of the string. *THAT* is directional picking.

NEXT

On the DVD with Duke Ellington I mentioned in another thread, he used
a lot of slurring when he played with his fingers and thumb, but on
the fast shit, he used some type of picking that wasn't strictly
alternate.
While you can definitely get the job done on fast tunes with that
picking, I preferred Joe's playing with his thumb to his pick playing.
Whether that was a result of his particular picking technique, I
understand what Jimmy Raney meant when he said Pass sounded "like
Charlie Parker, all straightened out."
There's definitely a more Swing aspect to his playing than Bebop, but
in that context (Duke) it worked out perfect.

In many ways you could say that Clifford Brown, Chet Baker, Dexter
Gordon or Stan Getz (all top faves of mine) were much more
"straightened out" rhythmically than Bird or Trane. I really see that
as an irrelevant remark, and I hope it is wrongly attributed to Raney.

I think that to understand Joe Pass or any truly great guitarist's
technique, you have to accept that it is a solution to a problem. The
problem (as I see it) is how to transfer the concept of tonguing and
articulation (which also includes controlled air flow to create
swelling volume effects in almost every phrase) on these wind
instruments to guitar and how to transfer the fact that jazz phrasing
is usually modulo-2 or 4 whereas the number of notes played per string
is very often 1 or 3. That is the problem. Many great guitarists have
found very clever and creative solutions to it. But if you take just
one slice of their technique and isolate it, then you get a partial
solution to the wrong problem. You have to start by really
understanding the problem and then evaluate the solution that works
best for you.

-Danhttp://danadler.com

I think Raney was commenting somewhat sarcastically about how Joe
Pass' playing kind of harkens back to a pre-Bird
conception of jazz.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The thing is human naturism. Just about all of our heroes put down
each other and not so much behind closed doors. I loved Pass' playing
and I loved Raney's playing. For example, Pass hated Hall's playing
and made no bones about it in the presence of other players. Are we
supposed to hate Joe for that and put down his playing? Certainly I do
not. And I love Hall's playing. They are all human. Raney's remark got
made public. When I once confronted Joe with it, he put his head down
and shrugged it off. No big deal. It's all part of human nature and
there is no stronger place then here to see all of this. The nasty
thing is people really trying to hurt each other , let alone put down
some of the greatest players in the history of jazz guitar....wow.
Look how famous and influential they were. We are wasting time with
negative quotes when we should be listening to the playing. You want
to say Pass used 100% "economy" picking? No problem. Who cares really
about this subject that much to wage a war over it? Am I going to put
down some one's playing who was at one time like family to me and one
of the greatest jazz players in the history of the instrument. Am I
going to go against Wes Montgomery's opinion that Raney was the best
he ever heard and "My favorite player"...." I do not think so. So, he
made a negative remark. It wasn't THAT negative. And Joe's negative
remarks go unnoticed or allowed. This becomes an old lady's club and
there comes a point, where it seems we are at the border of, when we
cannot seem to elevate above high-school. I mean, what is really the
point?

-TD

I suggest that those who feel that Raney didn't swing check out this
recording featuring both him and Kenny Burrell where it is clear that
both are influencing each other to the point that in places it's hard
to tell who is who. (Both are swinging btw.)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5JQgeCDh_I&feature=player_embedded#!
Charlie- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The cut "I'll close my Eyes" that you posted is Kenny Burrell only.
Jimmy doesn't play on that cut.  Am I missing something?

Yeah, read the other posts, it was Burrell, it all ended happily
though,
Charlie:)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Sorry, I posted after only reading about 4 hours of this thread! I
should have know I wouldn't be the first.
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Joe Pass - Economy picking
    ... He clearly uses a form of economy picking when moving from lower ... strings to higher strings. ... I preferred Joe's playing with his thumb to his pick playing. ...
    (rec.music.makers.guitar.jazz)
  • Re: Joe Pass - Economy picking
    ... He clearly uses a form of economy picking when moving from lower ... strings to higher strings. ... I preferred Joe's playing with his thumb to his pick playing.. ...
    (rec.music.makers.guitar.jazz)
  • Re: Joe Pass - Economy picking
    ... He clearly uses a form of economy picking when moving from lower ... strings to higher strings. ... I preferred Joe's playing with his thumb to his pick playing. ...
    (rec.music.makers.guitar.jazz)
  • Re: Joe Pass - Economy picking
    ... He clearly uses a form of economy picking when moving from lower ... strings to higher strings. ... I preferred Joe's playing with his thumb to his pick playing. ...
    (rec.music.makers.guitar.jazz)
  • Re: Joe Pass - Economy picking
    ... He clearly uses a form of economy picking when moving from lower ... strings to higher strings. ... I preferred Joe's playing with his thumb to his pick playing. ...
    (rec.music.makers.guitar.jazz)