Re: Jazz Guitarist Pet Peeves from Jazz Guitar NY forum

On Jul 20, 1:07 pm, Bob Roetker <b...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Before I start getting flamed, these are  NOT my opinions. As stated
in the subject these came from the Jazz Guitar NY forum. Just thought
they might generate some interesting discussion here.

Best regards,
Bob Roetker

Visit me on the web atwww.bobroetker.com
CDs atwww.cdbaby.com/all/broetker/
Vids atwww.youtube.com/broetker

On Jul 20, 12:34 pm, "Joe Finn" <J...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

"Bob Roetker" <b...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message

news:5a1cf20f-4f96-40a7-a86b-0f4dca115ce8@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

My jazz guitarist pet peeves are (in no particular order - these are
solely my opinions and do not reflect those of my friends on
Jazzguitar NY or anyone else except where noted):

1. Ballad -- player starts double-time playing immediately -- rather
than starting slowly, building intensity, and telling a story etc.
Tenor sax legend Dave Liebman said "you can tell a lot about a player
by the way he or she plays a ballad" (i.e., experience or lack
thereof)

2. Fast Tempo - player can't cut the tempo - but still tries, sputters
along, and sounds lousy doing it ---if you can't keep up playing
eighth notes -- try something else -- e.g., Peter Bernstein, Jim Hall,
Miles Davis, Grant Green, I think are masters at this, etc. that is,
leaving space, playing half, quarter, or whole notes, and rhythmic
patterns using one or two notes, etc.

3. No feeling -- no articulation -- everything is the same - straight
eight notes -- same dynamics, same everything, no vibrato, no bending,
no slurs-- (I could name names ... don't get me started....)

4. Playing over the wrong change -- player uses a lick or phrase
that .. to my ear.. really doesn't belong there... instead the player
uses the lick because he or she "knows it real well."...Usually
playing it "over and over."

5. Playing all the time --- leaving no space -- one NY Times writer
reviewing the Tal Farlow Tribute concert (featuring mostly guitarists)
years ago used the phrase: "Stringed Chatter."

6. Lousy sound (timbre) out of the amp or guitar --see other Forum
discussion

7. Too loud or too soft -- When playing a gig I think all guitarists
should DEMAND that their amps be miked or plug the guitar direct to
the board - all of the other instruments have the projection of the PA
system, why not the guitar? Usually the guitar gets lost in the mix at
a live gig -- Example: Martin Taylor played through the PA system at
the Herb Ellis tribute gig in NYC years ago with great sound that
projected thru the hall and blew everyone away (he played great too, I
might add). The other players used onstage amps which even though they
were miked--did not project nearly as well.

8. Pedal effects -- In my opinion it takes a lot of skill to use an
effect without sounding gimmicky -- Example: Jim Hall -- forget the
pedals, Jim (Sorry!); John Scofield -- not bad -- but sometimes (in
the past) he lays on the pedals too much. Bill Frisell -- excellent
pedal usage.

9. Sloppy playing -- this is a tough one to define -- Example: in my
opinion, Barney Kessel and Kenny Burrell played "sloppy" sometimes but
could get away with it as part of their style -- But it broke my heart
to hear Tal Farlow (a very articulate player in his prime) playing
sloppy (in his later years) -- he could'nt help it -- I could say the
same about Jack Wilkins but he'd kill me for saying it -- Jack plays
like we all wish we could.

10. Trite cliche playing -- I've been listening to jazz guitarists and
other players for years -- I define "trite" cliche playing vs. "good"
cliche playing like this: (a) "trite cliche" playing: "I've heard it
before played much better than you're doing" -- (b) "good cliche"
playing is: "I've heard it before and you're playing it as good or
better than ever." If you're going to play a cliche (as we all must to
give the listener a reference point see #11 below) you better damn
well play it "authentically" and "as good or better than the
original". Of course, worse than "trite cliche" playing is "no cliche"
playing (see #11 below).

11. Too much "originality" -- Let's face it -- if you're playing
"traditional" straight ahead jazz guitar (or some variation)-- you
have to use common "good cliche" traditional jazz phrases as a
reference point for the listener -- before you "take it out to lunch"
with outside or "modern" playing. Dave Liebman once said "you can go
out -- but the trick is knowing when to go out, how long to stay out,
and when to come back-- less is more."

12. Quoting entire eight bar or longer phrases from "famous" player
solos note for note-- we all copy the greats -- no crime in that ---
in my student days, I would play entire solos and treat them as "my
own" but -- when I hear a so called "professional" player lifting
entire passages, repeatedly -- I wonder -- is this player real or just
a copy cat (not as good as the original)? Doesn't the player realize
that other players, who have copied the same solo, know what's going
on? Dave Liebman said "learn how to play the entire solo EXACTLY like
the original -- then write 10 variations on it -- to make it
yours." (Dave -- if you're out there and I'm misquoting - -please
correct me.)

13. Bad start and/or a Bad finish to the guitar solo -- Stephane
Grapelli (jazz violin with Django) said "If you start and finish your
solo well -- that's all that matters -- because in the middle no one
is listening." There are some great guitarists that stumble into and
out of their solos, not having a "strong entrance" and "strong finish"
--but play amazing stuff in between -- you can tell who these players
are because they get no applause when they finish. The audience is
"taken by surprise" when the player just "stops playing." Listen for
examples of "good start & good finish" solos by the jazz masters,
Barry Harris, Coltrane, Bird, Bud, etc. Make your entrance and exit
"memorable" -- remember the Miles entrance in "So What?" - Trane's
entrance, and exit? Pat Martino's entrance in "Impressions?" etc.,.....
Bird's entrance in "Night in Tunisia?

14. Guitar "leader" recordings where the sidemen blow the leader out
of the water. To me, if the guitarist is the "leader" on the record he
or she must: (a) take the first solo on the first tune on the
recording -- which should reflect the guitarist's strongest and best
playing -- (b) make sure that the other players aren't going to make
the record buyer say: "why did I buy this for the guitarist leader? --
the sidemen (sax, piano, etc.) players are amazing!" Seems to me that
on some Pat Martino records from the late 60s early 70s Pat purposely
(?) used "weak" players so that he would sound "strong" (like Pat
isn't strong already!) Of course, Pat also recorded with strong
players (Cedar Walton, piano, is one), but to my ear, Pat was the
strongest player on most of his recordings -- the way it should be (to
me) if the guitarist is the "leader" on the date. Kenny Burrell held
his own with Coltrane. Some say that Herb Ellis could not keep up with
Oscar Peterson -- some even think Joe Pass could not keep up with
Oscar - but who could?

15. Solos on records that aren't worth recording: the player thinks
that he or she can just go into the studio and "toss off" a great solo
worthy of being set down for present and future generations -- in the
old days very few players could spontaneously create a "great" solo
under studio time pressure -- so many player's actually "rehearsed"
their solos instead: Example: Columbia Records Benny Goodman - Charlie
Christian recordings alternate takes --of the same tune - if you
listen to take after take all the other players have"rehearsed" their
solos -- except Goodman and Christian -- I once heard Woody Shaw (Jazz
trumpet) rehearsing by playing a solo to one of his own records --
note for note -- while the recording was also playing --he later
admitted he rehearsed the solo for the recording -- saying "it is too
important -- when you're recording -- you have to play something
great..."

16. Superficially playing tunes: some players just open the fake book
and start playing -- resulting in what I call a "superficial
performance" -- Bill Evans (Jazz piano) said " it is better to play
one tune for 24 hours, than play 24 tunes in one hour." I interpret
this as "know the tune very very well -- spirit -- lyrics - -past
interpretations -- history -- who has played it-- typical "keys" --
changes inside out and backwards and harmonic functions - common
substititions --proper melody and "accepted" variations. etc. For that
matter before I came to NYC -- someone told me "if you pull out a fake
book at a NYC jam session-- other players are going to get mad at you
and not take you seriously -- they want to play with "you" -- not
someone reading out of a book! -- the only way to do this is to
memorize the tune and know it very very well.

17. Not being able to "play the hell" out of basics: Blues and Rhythm
Changes: EVERY jazz player (who is trying to carry on the traditional
style or some variation) MUST be able to play Blues and Rhythm changes
-- I'm surprised when I hear jazz guitarists fall back on their "rock
licks" when playing what is supposed to be "jazz" blues or rhythm
changes. EVERYONE should be able to play note for note at LEAST ten
choruses of blues and rhythm changes copied from one of the masters:
Barry Harris, Tommy Flanagan, Bird, Bud Powell, Sonny Stitt, etc.
(some criticized Stitt for playing

...

read more »

Hey Bob,

I'm sorry if you think I was attacking, I didn't mean for it to come
off that way. I'll go to the Jazz NY site & say the same thing.

Dom
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Jazz Guitarist Pet Peeves from Jazz Guitar NY forum
    ... opinion the are many good jazz guitar players who need to make a living ... and if they can playing jazz or something close then that is enough. ... The other players used onstage amps which even though they ...
    (rec.music.makers.guitar.jazz)
  • Re: Guitar players players?
    ... have guitar playing as background music (in fact I can't have any ... know were crapola and been congratulated on my playing. ... I even enjoy listening to Hawkins, ... Some players, though, I really don't care what their playing is like - ...
    (rec.music.makers.guitar.acoustic)
  • Favorite posts... (Long post ---Sorry)
    ... contact and learn from guitar players in a such a way that would have ... been informative, in that I was able to learn about different players, ... playing jazz guitar. ... Trying to become a great jazz player by studying scales ...
    (rec.music.makers.guitar.jazz)
  • Re: Favorite posts... (Long post ---Sorry)
    ... contact and learn from guitar players in a such a way that would have ... been informative, in that I was able to learn about different players, ... playing jazz guitar. ... Trying to become a great jazz player by studying scales ...
    (rec.music.makers.guitar.jazz)
  • Re: Jazz Guitarist Pet Peeves from Jazz Guitar NY forum
    ... in the subject these came from the Jazz Guitar NY forum. ... leaving space, playing half, quarter, or whole notes, and rhythmic ... The other players used onstage amps which even though they ...
    (rec.music.makers.guitar.jazz)