Re: Where's the soul?!?


"Jack A. Zucker" <jaz@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:K4OdnVDapOzVWyLeRVn-uQ@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> "Mike C." <Funkifized@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> news:B--dnTwZWrb3-SLeRVn-qg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Why? What else did he do, other than the minor pent noodling?
>
> That's like saying that Pat Martino just does Melodic Minor
> noodling.<snip>

Except that Pat Martino uses far more for tools than just Melodic Minor.
Same for Stevie Ray and minor pent?

> SRV did play with dynamics. Listen to the El Macambo video.<snip>

Haven't heard it. However, one recording out of how many? So he played with
dynamics once and rarely did for the rest of his career? Shouldn't that be
considered constantly overplaying and playing with little sensitivity (and
soul) for most of his recorded output? The stuff that people play for me in
order to convince me that Stevie Ray could play is always, without
exception, balls-to-the-wall blisteringly loud playing at the upper end of
Stevie Ray's ability, which turns out to be his copying of Albert King
licks.

> I've found that some people just have a mental block against certain
> players. It's like guys who insist up and down that Benson isn't any good
> or that Coltrane was just playing random notes.<snip>

I agree that some people have this mental block. I believe that it's called
"taste" and "opinion". I have a mental block against over-the-top playing
with little actual vocabulary along with little dynamics change, and little
regard for groove. It's not a mental block against the player; it's a mental
block against the style of playing, which upon further listening, tends to
be headed up by Stevie Ray. If I don't know that a recording is Stevie Ray,
I still tend to not like it, or at least not be blown away by it, and find
later that it's him.

I did study with a teacher who was a great player and teacher who had issues
with "Benson licks" and such. I'm sure if prodded, he would admit that some
of Benson's recordings have great playing, but overall, this guy didn't like
Benson's output. I played Lee Ritenour's "Stolen Moments" disc for him, and
he admitted that the first tune was good, but most of the rest of the disc
was Lee's take on "those George Benson licks". I understand what he means,
and upon further listen, I agree that Ritenour came out with this disc at a
time that it was hip to listen to jazz, and that gave Ritenour an
opportunity to tip his hat toward the straight-ahead stuff that he was
originally brought up on. Ritenour, by the way, is also someone that I
consider to have monster chops, a myriad of harmonic tools at his disposal,
a good handle on playing in the groove, as well as great control over his
dynamics in playing, but rarely uses these things together well, making him
play with no soul. Fabulously boring to me. Like the jazz version of Stevie
Ray. Display of chops rather than good taste. I pick up a CD of his, like it
for about a week, get tired of it, and it either becomes relegated to the
"rarely played" part of my collection, or sold on Ebay.

> I highly value Joe Henderson's opinion and in terms of the "Why?"
> question - If you need an answer, that's probably the best one I could
> give you.<snip>

I can't vouch for Henderson's opinion, having not heard the context. He may
have said that the playing was the best of the bunch played for him at that
"Listening Room" session, or he just has a different opinion than mine.
Either way, unless he explains his opinion, it's of no use to me. I highly
value Henderson's playing and his opinion, but certainly not blind. If
Henderson played a bad solo or had a bad night, I don't think it's
disrespectful to say "that really sucked". If he has what I perceive to be a
misinformed opinion, I don't think it's disrespectful to feel that his
opinion sucks about that particular point. I certainly respect your playing
and opinion, Jack, but I can't agree with you about Stevie Ray. Stevie was a
good blues player, and his talent and fame in playing simple blues certainly
brought it back into the public eye, but I can't at all pretend that there
aren't far better blues players out there.

> I have transcribed Robben Ford and SRV and the SRV stuff is much harder to
> play authentically than Robben's stuff but of course, that doesn't mean
> anything either.<snip>

If I bashed a ukelele with a hammer, it would be harder to transcribe and
play authentically than either of them. So what?

>
> Robben's a great player and as Tom pointed out, started out playing jazz
> saxophone. Stevie is a blues player and can't play over jazz changes.
> However, he just kills on the blues and he's blown away many a guitar hero
> in that venue in jam sessions and such. Even Bucky Pizzerelli loves him.

But Robben is mainly a blues player, with blues being his earliest
influence, and he has learned to get beyond the "just a blues player" ties
and can play over jazz changes, too. Robben has learned to make music within
the blues idiom, stretching it to include far more than pentatonic noodling,
but still keeping the feel and the spirit of the blues. I'm not much of a
fan of Robben's straight-ahead jazz playing, in comparison to Benson,
Martino, Pass, etc., but he can play some of it. It seems to me that Robben
has dipped into some of that in order to further the vocabulary of the
straight-ahead blues, rather than regurgitate a bunch of Albert King licks.

My feeling is that soul is more about appropriate dynamics, rhythmic
placement of notes, and manipulating these two things in the context of a
performance in order to display the feeling in the music at that moment.
There are lots of players who are great players that might not have this
definition of "soul". There are lots of players who have this "soul" but
aren't very versatile as players and become uninteresting to some of us.
Stevie Ray certainly didn't have a lot versatility to his playing, as you
have noted him being a blues player and unable to play over jazz changes,
and I feel that the majority of the time didn't play with soul, preferring
to play loud and proud, trying to impress with chops rather than musicality.

--
Mike C.
http://mikecrutcher.com
Teaching: http://findmeateacher.com/contact.php?id=1107

"As the light changed from red to green to yellow and back to red again, I
sat there thinking about life. Was it nothing more than a bunch of honking
and yelling? Sometimes it seemed that way."
- Jack Handey


.

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