Re: Scales v. Modes

Joey, I haven't been following this thread that close but the gravity idea
caught my eye.
I know this is NOT what you are talking about but I think tonal centers have
a "tonal" gravity. If you play Gm7 C7 in your ear(at least in mine) is an F.
It's there whether or not the tune goes there or not.
What do you think about this concept
"Joey Goldstein" <nospam@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:42FBEB0F.34CAF2EF@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Sorry Marc but I've said all I'm going to say about this.
> Obviously we disagree.
>
> Marc Sabatella wrote:
>>
>> "Joey Goldstein" <nospam@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>> > Gravity, is a concept used to attempt to describe an objective
>> > phenomenon. It is not the phenomenon itself. It is something invented
>> > by
>> > man to help him understand the world he sees around him.
>>
>> This is a distinction that has no relevance for me. Gravity is gravity.
>> Ratios are ratios. And intervals are intervals. There is no benefit I
>> can
>> see to considered gravity as it existed before man versus gravity as it
>> existed after man, ratios as they existed before man versus ratios as
>> they
>> existed after man, or intervals as they existed before man versus
>> intervals
>> as they existed after man.
>>
>> > > especially considering that, as you have
>> > > already observed, these intervals don't come into being if we look at
>> the
>> > > overtone scale directly,
>> >
>> > Some of them do. Not all of them. And this depends on what scale and
>> > what tuning system we are talking about.
>>
>> True, but I don't think it helps your claim to say that some intervals
>> therefore predate scales even if others don't, because then you are stuck
>> trying to define various scales in terms of only those intervals that
>> existed before any scales.
>>
>> > Scales and tuning systems are Man-made.
>>
>> Any given performance of the scale is. The scale itself is a simple
>> fact,
>> like gravity.
>>
>> > > but only if we rearrange its pitches to form a
>> > > diatonic scale.
>> >
>> > Show me how *you* rearrange the notes of the overtone series to get a
>> > diatonic scale.
>>
>> I wrote imprecisely. I should have referred to the rearrangement pitches
>> drawn from several different overtone series, each built on tones drawn
>> from
>> the last.
>>
>> > Yes. The overtone scale (NOT the diatonic scale)
>>
>> You'll have to explain that distinction. It's not one I'm familiar with.
>>
>> > > It's
>> > > possible to take a scale an deonctruct it that way, but it's also
>> possible
>> > > to deconstruct the scale in other ways (such as by talking about the
>> > > sequence of whole and half steps,
>> >
>> > "Whole step" and "half step" are terms used to describe *intervals*.
>>
>> Right, but not intervals above the root. If you choose to define a scale
>> in
>> terms of intervals above the tonic, then the step sequence is a
>> corollary,
>> as is the deviation between the scale and the major scale. But if you
>> choose to define the scale in terms of the step sequence, then the series
>> of
>> intervals above the tonic is a corollary, as is, again, the deviation
>> between the scale and the major scale. And if you choose to define the
>> scale in terms of the deviation from the major, then the
>> interval-above-tonic and step sequence are both corollaries. Saying that
>> one of these is "right" and the others aren't is what I am saying is
>> pointless. They are equivalent.
>>
>> > Whether you care to acknowledge it or not when you alter a known scale
>> > in the manner that you are talking about you are altering the
>> > *intervals* of that scale.
>>
>> Of course. You're also altering the step sequence. It's all the same
>> ratios you're dealing with, so I remain unimpressed by attempts to say
>> that
>> one instantiation of those ratios is more fundamental than another.
>>
>> > > I'm trying to get you to agree
>> > > that there is no sense is which this determination has any
>> > > importance.
>> >
>> > Well you won't get me to agree to that either.
>>
>> Well, you have yet to suggest a difference that even in some alternate
>> universe would have any importance whatsoever.
>>
>> > And I would have to use partial numbers in the upper stratosphere of
>> > the
>> > overtone series to come anywhere near to the exact proportions of the
>> > intervals used in the 12 tone equally tempered scale.
>> > Would you at least admit that 12 tone equal temperamnet has not existed
>> > "forever", that it is a Man-made (recently) collection of very specific
>> intervals?
>>
>> These ratios have existed forever just as any others have. Use of any of
>> these ratios to define scales or intervals is moe recent, of course, but
>> the
>> important thing is, the ratios predate any of them. So saying that one
>> is
>> fundamental and defined in temrs of the other is just BS. Both are
>> defined
>> in terms of the more ancient concept - the mathematics.
>>
>> ---------------
>> Marc Sabatella
>> marc@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>
>> The Outside Shore
>> Music, art, & educational materials:
>> http://www.outsideshore.com/
>
> --
> Joey Goldstein
> http://www.joeygoldstein.com
> joegold AT sympatico DOT ca


.

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