Re: Any luthiers here?

On Jul 10, 5:43 pm, "David Hajicek" <haji...@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
"Tony Done" <tonyd...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message

news:13235f70-7055-4730-a822-872708282744@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
On Jul 10, 2:43 pm, "David Hajicek" <haji...@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:





"harv" <hle...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message

news:d53a46b2-059c-41cc-a3c0-b20567502f36@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
On Jul 9, 3:15 pm, Tony Weber <mycroft...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
snip>
I don't know that there has ever been a thread on RMMGA that was more
pertinent to something I do and something I believe in, yet, less
desirable to be a part of...but, like looking at a car wreck I just
can't help myself...

I use zero frets and I'm proud of it. I like everything about them
better than a traditional nut, however, I don't think less of guitars
with a nut on them because in the hands of a skilled craftsman in the
end it makes no difference to the player. I don't use them because of
intonation or tonal properties, I use them because I like the fact
that the strings are always at the correct height regardless of
adjustments to the saddle height or fret jobs down the road (and
because they are pretty essential on folding guitars...:^) I like the
"idea" that you should get a more consistent tone from a string always
being in contact with the same material, fretted or open, but I
honestly can't hear the difference between a fret and something like
bone.

Like Tony and Al (and probably others...) mentioned, the pursuit of a
perfectly intonated fretboard is pointless, at best you can correct
in 3 places (for me open and fretted at the 12th fret and 12th fret
harmonic) so on an average fretboard about 86% will be wrong. It's a
flawed design and that's what makes it special!!! In the hands of a
master (Segovia, Chet Atkins, Tommy Emmanuel...) it doesn't matter, if
a string is off 5 cents stretch it a bit until it's right. I've always
felt it wasn't a "guitar" problem anyway, it's a string problem...
going from unwound to wound strings... they (string companies) should
be the ones fixing the problem!!!

I remember the story of Earle Scruggs playing a banjo with a
compensated bridge for the first time.... he said "that's a nice
banjer son, but the intonation is off up the neck..."

Helmut makes some points however that do have a basis in fact. Some
guitars do have the fretboard cut too short between the nut and first
fret.

Here is how it happens:

It is common practice to slot fretboards by first cutting a slot
centered at "zero" then cutting the rest based on that fret, later
when the fretboard is cut for the nut the zero slot is removed and the
nut is pressed against the end of the board. Fret slots are
approximately .022 wide and the theoretical location of the slot is at
the center of the slot, so if you simply remove the slot the nut is
now .011 too far forward. Most top factories and certainly hand
builders have the fretboards cut so that the nut is located at the
theoretical center so it is correct. But it does happen a lot in
lesser guitars.

Harv

=============

Harv:

I have no complaint about a 0 fret. It is an elegant solution.

I have some thoughts about the effect of finger pressure on the string. As
you state, the guitar is a collection of compromises. What we have arrived
at today is pretty darned good. And the point is to make music, not
analyze
whether a particular note is a few cents sharp or flat (flat is corrected
by
the player, usually unconsciously).

My comment is about deliberately making the distance from the nut (or 0
fret) to the 1st fret slightly shorter than the mathematically correct
position. You explained how it can happen. I would suggest that this is
not a bad thing. The reason being that an unfretted string is under less
tension than a fretted one because of finger pressure and thus a fretted
note goes sharp relative to the 0 position scale. Thus the open string
needs to be just a little shorter to account for the added tension from
the
finger when it is later fretted, so that everything is sharp by the same
amount (and then you tune down). Could I hear the difference? I really
don't know. But having the nut about .010 to .020" closer is a reasonable
compromise. Some makers do it on purpose. Some classical makers remove
something in the neighborhood of a mm. On purpose. Just one more
compromise.

I press the string as close to the fret as possible to minimize the pitch
changes and to make playing easier. It also makes the frets last longer.. I
used to saw a fret in half in a few years until this was pointed out to
me.
I can hear the pitch change between fretting as above and pressing in the
middle. It's pretty large to my ear.

If you are as old as me you can remember back to when some companies
didn't
even slant the saddle, let alone compensate it! ;>) Things have come a
long ways since then.

Dave Hajicek

I just checked my Maton. As far as I can measure the first fret is in
the correct theoretical position, centre 36.2 mm from the nut for an
25.4" scale (mixed units!). I did the nut myself, it is low enough
that the strings rattle on the first fret if I play hard. Three
strings (oldish mediums, the G,A and E) were about 3 cents sharp on
the first fret with my normal mid-fret fretting, the other were in
tune. I reckon that is close enough, and it might be different with
another set or age of strings.

FWIW, I would have a zero fret given the choice, but it isn't a deal
breaker.

I knew you would be interested.

Tony D

=========
Tony:

My guitar I made with a Martin supplied fret board, 25.4" (which is not
exactly 25.4, by the way) scale has the nut at the theoretical 0 position..
It is roughly 32.16mm to the center of the 12th fret, or 12.66 inches.  I
suspect you transposed a number.

As you point out each string acts differently.  But 3 cents is close enough
for government work.  ;>)  So perhaps only Mr. W. would have ears good
enough to tell the difference.  Theoretically, it would be possible to make
all strings in correct pitch at each fret.  But then you change strings or
fretting technique or go to drop D and mess the whole thing up.  I have no
complaints about the pitch on my guitar.  If I start singing, I confuse the
audience anyway.  ;>)

Dave- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I made a fret spacing calculator in Excel for when I was making lap
steel fretboards. You can input scale length in either metric or
imperial, and it also outputs fret positions in both. <g> I quoted it
the way I did because most recognise scale length easier in inches,
but mm are more convenient for short distances - and I no longer have
an imperial ruler.

Tony D
.

Relevant Pages

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