Re: WARNING: POLITICAL (you've been warned)

JD <jdblackwell2@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in QdjPh.42$5x6.12@trndny02:">news:QdjPh.42$5x6.12@trndny02:

Steve Hawkins wrote:
JD <jdblackwell2@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in wUaPh.3$A%1.0@trndny02:">news:wUaPh.3$A%1.0@trndny02:

Steve Hawkins wrote:
Misifus <rafseibert@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in
news:riaPh.153911$ia7.125802@xxxxxxxxxxxx:

Chris Rockcliffe wrote:
hank alrich30/03/2007 06:26

Chris Rockcliffe wrote:

Advances in offshore, deep-water production techniques were
tested in the North Sea in in stormy sea areas and up to 180
fathoms. That learning curve could lead to other deeper water
offshore production platforms and/or sea-bed remote production
well heads and pipelines around the world.
And at some point it takes as much energy to get the stuff to
the surface as the stuff contains. End game.
Correct.... up to a point... depends on the pressures required;
the surface mix of gas oil and water; the max. selling price of
crude oil and/or gas versus the basic production price of say
diesel to power pumps and generators. It also depends on whether
gas (produced alongside oil can be reinjected or piped out,
rather than being flared). Many factors.

Oil and associated gas is used for so many things which can't
easily be replaced by alternatives - which upsets the economic
arguments for the costs of obtaining it.

And that's what I meant when I said:
"Recoverable is therefore mostly an economic factor. The cost of
production including production energy expenditure itself - set
against comparative profitability for the oil company".

CR

What Hank said still applies. Purely speaking of energy, if it
takes more energy to produce it that the energy it supplies,
there's no point in going through the motions. Unfortunately,
that's about where we are with respect to ethanol. It takes more
than one gallon fossil fuel to one gallon of ethanol, and the
ethanol supplies less energy than gasoline or diesel fuel.

-Raf
The answer to that economic question is that oil is used for more
than just fuel or energy, which was the point Chris was trying to
make. Bottom line, if no alternative exists, it's like any other
commodity. If you gotta have it, the cost to get it is not a
factor and you can't just look at it from the viewpoint of only one
use.

Ethanol is nothing but a political copout by congress to make it
look good and keep big oil happy.

Steve Hawkins

Given the kind of money we already spend on farm subsidies and
the
effect of oil addiction on the balance of payments it would seem to
me that it would be smart to redirect that to encourage more crops
like canola, soy and corn which which produce oil that diesels just
happen to run well on. Making ethanol cost effectively is definitely
an easily attainable goal it just requires a little incentive to
tweak the infrastructure to suit.

JD

As long as you don't mind paying more at the grocery store. I worry
that the larger farms, especially the coporate ones will contract
their capacity to making fuel not food. Money talks.

It's time to quit screwing around and move forward on replacing oil
as an energy source.

Steve Hawkins

Steve, we're already paying more. When was the last time you saw NY
strip for $4.99? It wasn't that long ago now it's closer to $10.00. I
maintain that if you spend a little more in your own back yard it
works out to a net gain for us all.

JD


Jack, the issue is capacity. There are less farms than there used to be
and if a significant portion of that capacity goes to fuel production we
will be reminiscing about the good old days when NY strip was $10.00.

Anyone who's thinking of going into farming for fuel will be constantly
worried about technological breakthroughs, world events and politcial
shifts. All I see is the cost of fuel and food going up with the money
still going to energy giants. You'll even have to buy more fuel than you
do now because it's less efficient.

Steve Hawkins
.

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