Re: Metal Support for guitar neck


"Mattia Valente" <mae.valente@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:4372841a$0$11075$e4fe514c@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Jon Slaughter wrote:
>> "Mattia Valente" <mae.valente@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>>>It's all about strength per unit weight; lots of woods are stronger than
>>>equivalent bits of metal of the same weight. Also, stronger is not
>>>necessarily better; you need enough strength, not as much strength as
>>>possible.
>>
>> That might be true... but who would you rather have on your football
>> team? A group of ants or a group of 350lb guys ;)
>
> Depends on what I'm doing ;-)
>
>> i.e., in the case of a piano with all that tension from the strings it
>> would snap the soundboard in a second, right?
>
> Yes, which is why pianos have a metal frame holding the strings. But we're
> talking about guitars here, with much lower stresses.
>

Yes, but how much? Its still a lot of stress on that piece of wood. Since I
don't really know though it could just be insignificant with the proper
wood.

>>>I wouldn't underestimate metalwork, personally. I won't touch it, really,
>>>because I don't have the tools to work it with any amount of finesse.
>>>Plus, it's heavy.
>>
>> Yeah. It is heavy, but I'm sure those are just engineering problems.
>> Surely one can get that problem out the way by using some alloy or
>> sythetic material that is just as strong but much ligher. I used steel as
>> an example simply because it is the most common and I have some in my
>> backyard that I can play around with.
>
> They have, and people have, but right now, wood is often still far more
> cost-effective to do, and equally good at the job (if not better, although
> a lot of that has to do with end-user expectations).

One thing I do feel strongly about is that one could create a system such
that the only way the guitar could go out of tune is from the strings
expanding. I'm not sure how much the wood effects this problem but I'm sure
its relatively signficant(maybe 5%)... Maybe not as signficant compared to
other problems that might pop up in using some other design.


>>>Carbon fibre rods + truss rod = good combo, in my book. The adjustable
>>>truss rod hasn't been around as long as guitars have.
>>
>> Ok, I'll check it out. One thing I do not want to do is really make a
>> guitar neck. This, to me, is by far the hardest part of the guitar and
>> probably the most important. The body would be pretty easy but getting
>> the neck leveled properly without knowing much about it and having the
>> proper tools would be a nightmare. I'm sure I could get something done
>> but I doubt it would be that good(good enough to want to play on).
>> Though maybe with just a good eye and the right tools and a little sweat
>> it wouldn't be all that hard to get something decent. But if I do end up
>> making a neck I might as try and make it "different".
>
> Get Melvyn's book (mentioned in an earlier post), and then decide. It
> should help you gain quite a bit of insight into how they work, what you'd
> need to make one, and how hard it is.
>

Ok. I'll look for it. I have the Guitar Repairers guide or whatever. But I
haven't did any guitar work for about a year.

> Honestly, I built my first from scratch guitar (after assembling one from
> parts) with practically zero woodworking experience; I'd never used
> hardwoods, a handplane, a chisel, and I didn't know what the heck a router
> even WAS. And I did fine, and that guitar is still rock-solid and gets
> played today.
>

Heh, maybe luck? Maybe its just not that hard? Maybe you just happen to put
enough time and effort into it to get a good result. I tend to be the type
of person that wants results ASAP. So I might fudge in some areas unless I
really really really want to do what I'm doing. This why I don't want to
make a neck.. not something I really really realy want to do.

> As for trying to make it different, as in truly different
> construction...to what end? I like new ideas and experiments as much as
> the next person, but I feel they should have a clear goal in mind, a
> problem or weakness they're trying to address, and not simply be different
> for the sake of difference. Start with one of the more 'standard' neck
> constructions, beefed up for stability (laminated, CF rods, f'r instance),
> see what you don't like about it, and ponder what you want to do to 'fix'
> this. Don't rush into 'innovative' R&D for the sake of 'innovation'; I put
> innovative in quotes because almost every variation of neck design you've
> mentioned, including several tension-free designs based on metal framing,
> such as this: http://www.bunker-guitars.com/tf_neck.html, and I'm sure
> I've seen an even wilder implementation somewhere, have been done with
> more or less success by someone in the fairly recent past. And honestly,
> most of the time, it all turns into marketing mumbo jumbo. Some of these
> innovations may be leaps forwards, but most are baby steps in some
> direction (a few back, a few forward, depending on your priorities, I
> guess), if they're anything at all.
>

Yeah. Its fun though. Its not that I plan on it being the next greatest
thing but the point is that if you don't try then it will never happen.
Even if someone else tries it and fails doesn't mean you necessarily will.
It might be the case, but if you have nothing to loose except some time then
it might be a good experience... and who knows what else.

I do think that good ideas must first have a strong fundamental foundation
and can't just be guesses(but sometimes guesses work). I do think the basic
idea that I have is pretty sound... Maybe the implementation is going to be
the hard part. Ofcourse assuming that someone and it shouldn't be tried
implies that no one would ever do anything. But I do see your point. Some
things are more pratical than others and more time should be spent doing
them.

A good book about guitar building technical issues is what I need. Then I
could determine just how much of an improvement adding a "metal" might work.
Maybe that book you mentioned does into all those details? (like who strong
wood is, what is good wood, bad wood... how wood can effect tuning, tone,
etc... how would can warp, etc...). ultimately I guess I would just have to
learn more about wood(cause I know very little).

>> I replaced them with sprerzo's or whatever a while back. I replaced the
>> Nut with a locking Nut which I don't lock because it always makes the
>> strings go sharp and it seems to say in tune better without it.
>
> Locking nut seems like a potential spot for weirdness; it's only meant to
> work when locked. And locking nuts are useless on guitars without
> bridge-end fine-tuners

oh. I didn't know that. Maybe that was my issue. My strat only has action
and inntonation "tunners"... but nothing like on a violin where you can get
that very fine tunning.

>
>> Basica I refretted my neck, Replaced the nut and changed the tunners. I
>> think I did a pretty good job with the refret as it being my first time.
>> only had one fret that gave a problem.. which as the 21 fret that didn't
>> seat well... I just filled it down instead of pulling it back out. The
>> neck plays just as good as it did before as far as frets are
>> concerned(better actually dince they wern't worn). Its pretty lvl as I
>> can tell and only slight buzzing(which I think is due to other problems).
>> Basicaly that 21st fret is slightly raised in the center and you can see
>> a small gap betweeen the fret and the board.. Not sure what happend...
>> but since I rarely play that high I just filed it down to get it out the
>> way.
>
> Fair enough. Just a thought: if your fret slots were a touch wide for your
> new frets, could be that caused the neck to be a little more flexible than
> it used to be (frets not 'compressing' the whole thing).

Its possible but they seemed to fit really well and they were suppose to be
the same type that my guitar originally had in there(some type of fender
fret wire). It could be the issue. When I take it to a luthier I'll tell
him what I've done. I think though it just needs a good setup cause it
hasn't been setup since I brought it except by me. I might end up having to
buy a new neck though if I really screwed it up. But I do think its pretty
good but just needs a little TLC.

>
>> The tuners should be ok.
>
> Should be. Sprezels are quality hardware.
>
>> The Nut gave me a little big of a problem. When I was drilling the
>> wholes in the back of the neck to mount it... I was trying to make one
>> slightly deeper but the bit grabbed a chunck of wood and went a little to
>> deep. What I did was filled the whole with bits of wood and wood glue
>> and stuff to fill it back in and compressed it. I think its ok though as
>> the nut seems completely stable.
>
> It's still a fair bit of wood out of a critical neck joint area, although
> yeah, it shouldn't affect stability overmuch.
>
>> The main issue is really just that the B and G string don't seem to stay
>> in tune. Maybe if I could use my locking nut to lock them down I would
>> but like I said, every time I do it they always go sharp(maybe its from
>> tighting it down to much?). Also when I do some heavy bending on them
>> they will go out of tune a few cents.
>
> Sounds like a nut and/or saddle problem, although I'd point the finger at
> the nut, personally.

I think it might be that piece of metal that is used to get the correct
angle. Sometimes when I tune it I hear this high pitch noise like the string
has sliped or something(its slight though). I can't explain it but it kinda
seems like its getting a little hung up somewhere. It might be that theres
something somewhere causing the strings to catch. I'll take a look at it and
see what I find.. maybe adding a little grease or graphite might fix the
problem?

> Mattia

Thanks,
Jon


.

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