Re: Sound of 'j' and 'z' in Hindi films and songs

Hi:

Yes, there is no reason that to use it as a tool in arguing your case. We
should keep focus on the original pronoucation regardless whether people
pronounce it correctly or not. It is same as saying that nobody in this
world can come out the thing which is exactly 1 meter, then we do no need
know how long is exactly 1 meter. There is no occasions when we use Urdu
words in Roman script here. Both languages are comple different. A few
RMMIMers may not be able to write certain words correctly. It does not mean
that they simply must not be encouraged to learn the correct sounds and
spellings. There will always be new words come out every day. People need to
learn the standard spelling of these new word in order to communicate with
other people clearly. Yes, it is "samazo" so sacrosanct that "samjho" seems
like a blasphemy. Everyone knows samazo is so beautiful while samjho is so
rustic. If you can use world samazo rather than samjho, then you can make
yourself more classy. People who talk to me will respect you.Yes, it is
wrong (written) spelling such a holy cow that anybody making even a faint
attempt to offer a correction or amendment must be pilloried. Since the
people who offer a correction or amendment actually helped other people to
communicate their message clearly and other people learn new thing, so these
people should be praised rather than pilloried. Yes, there is a Sanskrit
shloka in a Veda (25/14). There is no such a furore if poor Asif prepares a
lesson so painstakingly for the benefit of other RMIMers. Since he made this
community to be a better place and enhance the quality of messages in the
forum, everyone should welcome such move rather than trash talk. Although
such lesson can be boring, but learning them will eventually paid off. Yes,
we can't possibly publish these books in iTrans. We need to overcome
enumerous spelling ambinugities when we publish these books in iTrans. Even
tranlating a single page may need to clarify the spelling of least twenty
words. You can image that how may spelling ambinugities we need to overcome
when translating a book completely. There are only a few people know and can
decipher iTrans since it contains so many spelling whose meaning are totally
unclear. Once the original word were spelled wrong, then it is extremely
hard to decipher them. For a lot of words, only the original author know
what they are.

? How many people (and
here I am referring to the common masses) know and can decipher
iTrans


"Afzal A. Khan" <me_afzal@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:h3topk$d6l$1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
UVR wrote:


On Jul 17, 9:40 am, "Afzal A. Khan" <me_af...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
2. Everybody knows that the "j-dot" practice was in vogue
for a pretty long time. Its disappearance is not accidental.
It is quite deliberate. Why shouldn't we point it out all
the time as a most appropriate example of how (and why)
things have been taking a wrong turn ?

3. Our comments are NOT addressed to the hundreds and thousands
who walk the streets of Lucknow and Lahore. These observations
are meant for those literate, well-read folks who pride
themselves
on being RMIMers.

Afzal

Afzal saahib,

With all due respect, I firmly and totally disagree with #2. You have
made this 'conspiracy theory' comment earlier on RMIM as well as on
ALUP, but I think you are just blowing it completely out of
proportion. You won't find this conspiracy theory at work except in a
far fringe of a particular fundamentalist group of people, to balance
whom out, I daresay there is an equally fundamentalist group of people
at work at the "other end." The fact is that the vast majority of
people who care about correct pronunciation do pay attention to how
they say "z" just as much as they do to "Kh", "Gh", "q". There is no
need for us (I speak of you, me, Asif and the vast majority of Urdu-
using and Urdu-song/poetry-loving people, including RMIMers) to ignore
the vast majority of people, is there? At least, I am certainly not
interested in having any 'discussions' about what these fringe
elements are accomplishing and how.

Regarding #3, I do understand that Asif's comments were addressed to
that gentleman (Mr. Bharat?). However, the way the argument was
presented, it came across as if the assertion was that "everyone who
knows Urdu pronounces its sounds correctly". While we now know that
Asif wasn't saying this, you are well aware that the assertion itself
is as far from the truth as can be. This is why I mentioned the
Lucknow/Lahore layman.

Besides, as Abhay points out, people familiar only with Marathi-
influenced Roman transliteration of Urdu/Hindi words, may
instinctively write "zumroo" because the English letter they associate
with the Devanagari letter 'jh' is 'z'. How are we sure that if
someone writes "zumroo" he does not read it as Jhumroo? I know many
people who WRITE, for example, "Zhanak Zhanak Paayal Baaje" and read
it PERFECTLY with the correct pronunciation. I am not saying I
condone the "Zhanak"-type spelling, I absolutely don't. But we can be
a little gentle about it. Jumping at someone gullet is not the best
way of conveying your point. In fact, it is the best way of ensuring
the opposite -- that they WILL NOT listen to the substance of what we
have to say.

-UVR.



Shri UVR-ji,

I had to attend to some urgent matters; hence the delay, for
which I am sorry.

As to why the Marathi-speaking people do what they do is
something that I do not quite understand. And there is little
point in me making any comments thereon.

Why Mr. Asif chose to prepare and post a lesson on (mis)pronun-
ciation is a question that he can very well answer for himself.
You have yourself admitted that he did not make any assertion
that "everyone who knows Urdu, pronounces its sounds correctly".
I don't think I have made any such assertion either. I faintly
recall that you had an e-mail exchange with me (some years back)
about 'Allama Iqbal's Urdu pronunciation. Now, his (written)
diction (in both Urdu and Faarsi) was impeccable. But that is
quite another thing. An year or so back, we had some lengthy
discussions on ALUP about "impeccable" pronunciation, geographi-
cal quirks, "ahl-e-zabaan" etc. I am sure you remember all those
discussions. When it is nobody's case that "everyone who knows
Urdu, pronounces its sounds correctly", why use that as a tool in
arguing your case ? What the hundreds and thousands of ordinary
folks walking the streets of Lucknow and Lahore do, and how they
speak whatever language they do speak, is entirely irrelevant for
purposes linked only to our RMIM group. Asif's post was NOT
addressed to or meant for them.

Having said that, I would still like to reiterate that what we
are discussing here is not SPOKEN Urdu, but WRITTEN Urdu, parti-
cularly when it is written in Roman script. And that too, in the
strict context of our Newsgroup (RMIM) and the 30 or 35 people
who are regular participants. And, pray, what are the occasions
when we use Urdu words in Roman script here ? Briefly, I would
say : when we refer to film names, and filmi lyrics. It is
possible that some (or a few ?) RMIMers may not be able to write
certain words correctly. But does it mean that they simply MUST
NOT be encouraged to learn the correct sounds and spellings ?
Is "samazo" so sacrosanct that "samjho" seems like a blasphemy ?
Is a wrong (written) spelling such a holy cow that anybody making
even a faint attempt to offer a correction or amendment must be
pilloried ?

There is a Sanskrit shloka in a Veda, [probably Yajurveda
{25/14 ? )] which reads something like :

"A no bhadrah kratavo yantu visvatoadabdhaso aparitasaa."

A rough rendition in English reads like :

"Let benevolent, harmless, free and fruitful ideas come to
us from all sides."

So why should there be such a furore if poor Asif prepares a
lesson so painstakingly for the benefit of other RMIMers ?
Nobody is infallible here, and (the RMIM Archives would show
that) I have always owned up my own mistakes.

You state that you firmly and totally disagree with "# 2".
I do not quite follow which part of my comment # 2 you do not
agree with. You can't possibly disagree with the assertion that
the "j-dot" practice had been in vogue for a pretty long time.
In the lengthy iTrans debates of yore, reference had been made
to the booklets of Urdu poetry compilations that used to be pub-
lished by Prakash Pandit. Even in the current discussion, Shri
Kalyan has referred to it, as did Abhay Phadnis.

I feel that you perhaps are not in agreement with the claim
that the above {"j-dot"} practice is vanishing. You have also
used the words "conspiracy theory" and ascribed them to me (for
having used them in earlier RMIM discussions). I think even
Phadnis has attributed the use of this word to me. I am sorry
I do not recall using the word in earlier threads. Certainly,
I didn't use it in the current discussion.

What I have claimed is no doubt true. I have personally experi-
enced it in my time. {But I can't possibly provide details
here.) You can read for yourself what Prof. Surjit Singh wrote
(that his reading of the Daily Jagran confirms this). I too
have provided details from a SMALL section of the front page of
the Dainik Bhaskar (issue dt. 17th July, i.e. yesterday) where
quite a few Urdu words have been used without the dot.

Here are some other Urdu words taken from the two hindi dailies,
Bhaskar and Jagran (today's issue) :

haazir haajir
faisla phaisla
giriftaar giraphtaar
ziyaada jiyaada
zimmedaar/zimmedaari jimmedaar/jimmedaari
isteefa isteepha
muKHaatib mukhaatib
KHafa khafa

The disappearance of this practice is not a simple "conspiracy".
Normally, a "conspiracy" is a "shaD'yantra" hatched by a few
against many --- a small rebel group can plan a conspiracy
against the establishment. Here, it is a case of a deliberate,
almost official policy. For me, it is immaterial, if you or
Abhay Phadnis do not agree with this. The truth (whatever it
is) is not created by any claim I may make, nor can it be
changed by your denials or disagreements.

Phadnis has referred to some books where he can still see the
dots. May I submit that all these are books of poetry, all
except one being Urdu poetry books. Now, you can't possibly
publish these books in iTrans, can you ? How many people (and
here I am referring to the common masses) know and can decipher
iTrans ? If you omit the dots here, the contents won't make
much sense (if any). And the books simply won't sell ! A
really appropriate example would be general hindi books, even
college text books and the daily (hindi) newspapers.


I will quote two instances in this regard. One is well-known
and the other should be. I don't know if either of you were
around in pre-independence days (i.e. during the British Raj).
Railway Stations then, in all parts of the country, had the name
pillars in English, Urdu and also hindi (or the local language).
But after Independence, the Urdu names were simply painted over.
It wasn't as if all the Urdu-knowing people had vanished from
India. Even today, I daresay, India has many more Urdu-speakers
than, say, Pakistan. Sometimes, one can see a clue in Crosswords
appearing in US newspapers : "Language of Pakistan", and the
answer is a four-letter word. It makes me feel quite angry.

The second instance : Maulvi Abdul Haq is popularly known as
Baba-e-Urdu. His services in the educational field and in the
promotion of the Urdu language are legendary. He was a founder-
member of the Anjuman-e-Taraqqi-e-Urdu. The Anjuman also had
branches in cities that, in due course, became part of Pakistan.
In August 1947, he was called by Maulana Abul Kalam Azad and
given an ultimatum in unequivocal terms. Either he had to remain
in India, in which case, he was required to dissociate himself
completely from any linguistic activities of the Anjuman in
Pakistan, practically requiring him to disband it. Maulvi Abdul
Haq decided immediately to go over to Pakistan. I have, in my
time, read a great deal on this particular issue but could not
really understand the urgency and immediacy of such an ultimatum.


In conclusion, let me quote an excerpt from a post I had sent to
ALUP about an year back :

When the 2004 Indian Parliamentary Elections were to be held,
and political campaigning had reached a crescendo, the then
Indian Prime Minister made a grandiose promise : "We are
going to appoint Two Crore Urdu teachers". When told that he
was going a little overboard, the figure was soon whittled
down to Two Lakhs. But nobody thought it fit to ask as to
where were the schools which could absorb such numbers.
Everybody knew that it was merely a well-worn election
rhetoric.

I had once quoted a sher by Faani Badayuni (which was written
about himself). The sentiments are equally applicable to the
Urdu language itself :

Mar mar ke jee raha hai Faani
Allah re us ki saKHt~jaani





Afzal














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