Re: tasveer tere dil mein: an unabashed analysis

On Apr 17, 8:02 am, kcp <kcpin...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Apr 17, 3:35 pm, cooldudesaks...@xxxxxxxxx wrote:



R'' G''..

We *are* talking about the same thing, so just to make sure
there is no sophistry involved here, if a singer can comfortably
voice notes from his/her anu-mandra "N all the way up to the
ati-taar S", would you say this singer can sing in 3, 4 or 5
octaves?

Yes, we are talking about the same thing. Sorry for the horrid
explaination...
As for the question, a singer singing ati-mandta N upto ati-taar S
sings in 5 octaves (a range of 3 octanes and 1 note)

Haha ... fully agreed. The Doubting Thomases can listen to the
copy of this song somebody has kindly uploaded to YouTube.

I for one do not think that Lata takes over Manna. I think they were
equally good. Lata's fast pace and climax to the song makes it
awesome. SNT wah bhai wah, aapka jawaab nahi !


I find Manna Dey's taans at the end of "ud ja bhanwar" to be quite
weird. The overall singing is wonderful but that part somehow sticks
out like a sore thumb.

BTW how many octaves does she cover in "Maalavuun Taak Deep" ? and the
lyrics !! !I wonder how she agreed for her brother to sing this kind
of song ;)

kcp

That is one amazing song! One of her best, IMHO. The contrast between
the veena and the voice of Lata is amazing.

BTW, here are a bunch of posts from another forum (tfmpage) that I am
C&P-ing. They present an analysis of Rafi's range and his limitation
in the lower octaves, and also talk about the range of SPB and KJY.
The posts were written by two people - rajaG and MS.

http://tfmpage.com/forum/10142.6302.04.57.19.html

BEGIN QUOTE
From: rajaG (@ 208.24.179.129) on: Thu Jun 14 15:35:48 EDT 2001


Range (in statistics and in music) is defined as the distance/gap
between the highest value and the lowest value of any metric. In the
case of human voice, it is obviously measured by the lowest note and
the highest note a person can touch and sustain. While the Indian
classical nomenclature (sa re ga ma) gives a good indication of range
it is still a relative measure. Sudha Ragunathan hitting the mElstaayi
'pa' in 5 katta (safEd 5) might still be a 'ri' for somebody whose
voice is in 1 katta (safEd 1). Absolute note is the standard
nomenclature of Western Music. For example E is E and G is G. Talking
about SPB's range, he sang Suvvi Suvvi Suvvaalammaa and hit the keezh
"sa" i.e the lowest E. In Rajai kaiya vachcha (set in A major) he hits
the highest B flat note. To chart out his range, it will look like
E1 to E2 to E3 to B#3 - which is over 2 and 1/2 octaves. Typically
lady singers have a much higher range plus they can smoothly
transition into falsettos thereby increasing their ranges too.
Incidentally, there may be an occasion that SPB has hit a note higher
than B#3 or lower than E1, but I am guessing that it is NOT typical.

Rafi was very comfortable in the upper octaves being more of a tenor.
Duniya kE rakhwaalE was set in E minor and he goes up all the way upto
madhyam which happens to be A3. In the live show versions he went upto
pa (but the scales were reduced to D minor) so he was still hitting A3
as the highest note in the song. Man tarpat was also set with E2 as sa
( A minor is the root chord since hindolam has no panchamam). When he
says sun mOrE vyaakul man.........., he hits the upper madhyam which
also happens to be A3. I however believe that Rafi was quite
comfortable in staying in the upper notes and probably had an upper
tip which could even touch the C4 note.
The question is about the lower notes. Rafi has virtually NO song
where he could comfortably traverse an E1 or F1 note (in fact I wonder
if there is any song where he has even touched these notes). This is
what people refer to as an absence of bass, in the voice. Discussion
of bass is merely an observation - it has no bearing on the talents of
a singer.

When forumers talk about Rafi's bass, I wonder how many of them have
ever sat with a Harmonium or a keyboard and try to gauge the scale in
which the songs have been presented.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: rajaG (@ 207.43.195.202) on: Thu Jun 14 16:11:05 EDT 2001


Incidentally, I have NOT claimed that SPB has the widest voice range.
I have just used his singing as an example. There are many classical
singers who have a much wider range. If you take a typical male voice
using C as the base scale then C1 to B1 would be mandhra sthaayi
(keezh sthaayi) C2 to B2 would be madhya sthaayi and C3 to B3 would be
thaarasthaayi (mEl sthaayi). About C4 to B4 - would be kadhavu
idukkula eli chikkinda sthaayi:-) Once again I have used, the
Harmonium which has typically 3.5 octaves as the reference for C1, C2
etc.

About Rafi's singing, sorry to belabour the point, if somebody can
come up with real examples of in a "specific" song he has touched
these "specific" notes (on the Western scale) which clearly
establishes his prowess in the bass notes, I will gladly revise my
opinion. Merely mentioning "I think he sounds cool in these notes", or
"His bass in sow baar janam lEngE is better than KK's bass in panthi
hoon mai" will get my usual "You don't know your sh*t man!"
response:-)

· From: MS (@ 129.252.222.2) on: Fri Jun 15 12:13:45 EDT 2001

G:

yes I do (on KJY’s Range). Even for a hard core fan ( not blindly
though) of KJY (like me for instance :-)) it seems a bit difficult to
comprehend his voice range. His voice range had been a function of his
age. In the early stages, there was less bass in his voice and he was
singing at scales much higher than he now resorts to. (now = period
till 1994-1995). Typical examples of his early high pitched songs in
Malayalam are:

(1) Nakshathra dheepangaL thiLangi
(2) sanyaasini nin puNyaashramaththil
(3) aalaapanam ( from gaanam I guess)

in tamil( middle era) I can quote:

(1) thom thom thom
(2) kalaivaaNiye
(3) lochana

IMO, his voice peaked near Sindhubhairavi period. He could sing
literally anything ! I think it is in the same period that he sang two
of his great songs:

(1) mazaikkorudhEvane - shree raghavendra
(2) Ezu swarangaLum - Malayalam ( much better than tamil)

In Ezu swarangaLum he touches the nadir of base notes and sustains
with absolute ease. In mazaikkorudhEvane, the brighas he displays are
just just out of the world.But tamil songs never really gave a chance
to display his vocal breadth.

Then came the period of Ravindran's great classics (in Malayalam) by
which time it was a forgone assumption that KJY sings mainly in the
scale of C from lower panchamam to the upper. The first of its kind
"His highness Abdullah" just proved how good he was at base notes
(pramadhavanam). This just buttressed the aforestated assumption. The
classic "bharatham" too did not have high pitched songs sans the only
line in "Raamakatha gaanalayam". The songs of "Rajashilpi" and
"kamaladhalam" were other classics which displayed more of his control
on brighas than the vocal range.

Then came "aaraam thampuraan" which virtually dispelled all the doubts
about his vocal range. This was another classic by Ravindran and if
anybody wants to have a taste of his vocal range, he need to listen to
two songs:

(1) Harimuraleeravam - Aaram thampuraan. Set in the raga
sindhubhairavi it has a lovely hindustani aalaap in the beginning. The
song starts in the base notes and reaches upper shadjam in the first
sharaNam.

(2) A song from Tansen composed by Ravi Jain which he sings in stage
shows. There is NO oringinal sound track of this song.

Let me put it this way. Harimuraleeravam is something ONLY he can
sing. He spans from lower panchamam to upper shadjam. In the song by
Ravi Jain too, he spans the entire octave.

But after 95 his voice had deteriorated so much that he:

(1) became more nasal

(2) strains a lot for brighas which once flowed naturally - an example
would be "vaarthingaaLaal maari vara gOrOchanam" in Malayalam- It is a
beautiful composition by Ravindran.

(3) has lost his bass considerably

(4) has more vibrato. The vibrato which was a natural and loveable
ingredient of his voice has become a platform on which he can comfort
himself to maintain shruthi. The worst example of this is in the song
"kaNNaamoochchi yEnadaa"..listen to the line "en kaNNaaaa...". The
worst form of extra dependence on vibrato to stabilize voice is
displayed by Kumar Sanu, but oops..we are talking about singers
here..so let us exclude him from the discussion :-)

Presently his voice will not have a range more than the upper
panchamam. Or rather to put it in a different manner, it will be
unbearable to hear him sing even above the upper madhyamam (scale C).

---------------------------------------------------
· From: rajaG (@ 207.43.195.202) on: Fri Jun 15 12:33:35 EDT 2001

MS: continuing on the terminology I used earlier, IF we assume that
Harimuralivaram was set in C2 as sa, then the song touches G1 as a low
note and C4 as the high note. While I agree that with age, his higher
octave notes might not sound pleasant (and as a smart musician, he may
not venture into it), I am sure that in Carnatic concerts he digs
deeper and deeper into the lower octaves. He may perform with C#2 as
sa (madhya sthaayi) and actually go as low as C#1 - though NOT for a
lot of sangadhis.

Could you please take a couple of the songs which you have mentioned
(especially in his prime) and write down the scale, and the highest
note and lowest note that he has touched.

The SPB, Rafi arguments were getting to be so nasty and distracting
that I didn't even get a chance to mention this - scared of definite
"misinterpretation" and the ensuing discussions and upakathaas - in
technical aspects of singing (I repeat, singing NOT playback singing)
KJY has performed many masterpieces in which he stands alone, at the
top. God Bless him!

END QUOTE
.

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