Re: the N word


bozak wrote:
"Reverend Jazz" <stevesjackson@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:1152368226.347831.291850@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Wasteland Drifter wrote:
purrffecttbliss wrote:
On Sat, 8 Jul 2006 01:36:36 +0100, "Wasteland Drifter"
<wasteland.drifter@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:


No, but in the original post, Tim said that they were primarily
using it because they're into hip-hop and are hearing it in rap
songs.

It's bigger than Hip Hop.


I was never disputing that fact.

There's little need to single it out and condemn it for turning a negative
into a positive then...

if I can chime in... that's a farce. That whole turning a negative
into a positive thing. that doesn't usually happen in language over
the course of 30 years. It takes alot of time to turn negative
language into positive language because a vast majority of people have
to accept that it is positve. That's just not the case here.

you must have not ever lived in a predominantly black community in the US...

been living in one for 30 years now.



This is not about you or me. This is about the world in general.
Just because you don't personally take offense doesn't mean that
there aren't people who do.

People get upset about all types of *** doesn't mean we have to
pander to every little thing... For example, I'm guessing
arachnophobia is the most common phobia, now does that mean that
everyone who doesn't suffer an irrational fear of spiders has to go
and kill every spider in existance just to please those who are
scared?


No, but I wouldn't deliberately bring a spider into a room full of
people with that particular phobia either. And I certainly wouldn't
act completely clueless as to why they might be upset if I were to do
so.

Who's saying act completely clueless about anything?

It's debateable if a room full of people would all be upset about the use of
the word '***' regardless of context so that comparison with walking into
Arachnophobia Anonymous with a Tarantula on your arm is silly.

It's not debatable. If you get 12 jurors of varying ages, social
backgrounds, education levels, etc., I can garuntee at least 1 of them
will have a problem with the word. It's just not that widely accepted
yet.


We'll also forget that confronting your fear is recognised as the best
method of overcoming it...

not quite sure what this has to do with the conversation. I understand
it as a response to mocha's example but I don't get it in reference to
the subject.


The word '***' is being used in a positive context in this
example, *** anybody who takes it out of context that's their
problem.

I've seen bullets fly over that one little word. "*** anybody who
takes it out of context" just doesn't fly in some circles of today's
society. It's much more serious than that for some people. .

REMEMBER CONTEXT.

Are you honestly saying someone went all guns blazing because their friend
said "What up ***?" there was absolutely no other underlying problem or
motive, just the single use of that word?

The first time a black person addressed me as such I almost hit the
man. It took all within me not to beat him down. Nobody had ever
addressed me as that in a positive or negative sense and I had no idea
that folk used it like that. This was 1992. whenever I heard it,
whenever my friends or family said it, they were definitely using it in
a negative sense.

lol... where in the hell was this, secondly why the *** were you so uptight???

South Carolina, Calhoun County. A friend of my cousin's was talking to
him (a li'l bit older than he and I at the time) and I wasn't joining
in the conversation and he said something like "wassup li'l n***a, cat
gotcha tongue?" I just looked at him.

Why was I so uptight? Honestly, because I had spent alot of my life
learning how to not like white folk and I associated the word with
their dislike of my people and culture. So, to hear it coming out of a
black man's mouth, it was the equivalent of a black person calling me
darky, spook, coon, monkey, etc.


im guessing you arent that way anymore since you listen to hiphop...

I understand that people use it differently, I just don't agree that it
should be used.



If the kids have
no problem with it's usage and use it amongst themselves then why
the hell should anyone tell them it's 'wrong' for them to say it?


The may unknowingly say it around others who might have a very serious
problem with it.

And they may not...

For the record, I don't allow my students to address me or each
other as "dude" or "homie" or "bro" in the school setting either.
That's street language and it needs to stay in the street.

Forget all this 'street language' nonsense, this is a question of
authority and an example of something which you can use to exert
authority over the kids because it's seen as the 'right' thing to do
despite NOBODY doing it.


I'm sorry but we're talking about a school setting, correct? I can't
just "forget all this street language".

Exactly because they must 'respect' your authority!

Ego trip...


You're kidding, right? have you seen some of the inner-city schools
around this country? Are you going to honestly tell me "oh, let them
say what they want, it's ok?" Children need discipline in their lives.
They need structure. A lack thereof is part of what's created out
inner-city school nightmare.

when it comes to mocha, ego trip is exactly right just from what i
read in here from her... but hey, i dont trip off of anybodies ego until
it fucks over others rights...


Did you or anyone else see that episode of the Apprentice where the
young guy (Andy?) was talking to a business contact from the Dennis
Leary Foundation and he addressed her w/ "Yeah, Hi so and so. What's
Up?" during a business call?

I don't watch crap like that.

Does anyone who did see remember what her reaction was to his use of
"street language" w/ her in that instance?

It was obviously negative, and that's obviously her problem.

There are places where it's appropriate and places where it isn't and
kids need to know the difference.

Kids aren't stupid.

They're not stupid but they don't always think in the right vain. The
attitude may be I know it's wrong but I'ma do it anyway.

and adults are different how???

No. But it's alot easier to get children to do the right thing than
adults.



It's not ok....but I fully realize that some probably do.

Why is it not right for them to use the English language?


silly question and I won't entertain it.

It's not a silly question at all... Ignoring words and trying to get people
not to use them because they offend YOU doesn't mean the word will disappear
or their usage will end. If anything it gives them more power.

Oh please. Not saying a word doesn't mean you're ignoring it. You
just have to know your vocabulary. There are millions of words out
there. Of all of them, why must n***a be one we defend and debate
over?

because people like mocha give it power???

This whole thing about giving the word power... this crap. I think
y'all are fooling yourselves. Either that or y'all are easily led.
See, I can't go around letting people think we've arrived when we
haven't. And as long as we haven't arrived, I'm not about go on
conducting my life like we have. Sure, we've made some strides but
there's still such a long way to go. There are certains things I will
tell my children I expect from them and then I will tell them what the
reality of the world is. And in time, they'll need to be able to
balance the two.


I mean really, is there any use for n***a?

obviously you havent ever lived in a black urban community...
of course it is...

Again, lived in one all my life.


peep it... whats up my ***... = term of endearment

sorry, can't relate. It's weird because I used to say dawg alot but
now, not so much. I typically call folk by their names.


Is there? And since
many of us still can't determine why folk think there's a difference
between n****r and n***a, why should there be any debate over it?

there is an obvious difference to the people who use them, why else
would one use *** or *** if there wasnt a difference???

why use it at all?


Do
latinos debate over the use of words such as ***? Do asians debate
over slurs such as mash face or ***? I mean, we're acting like
there's absolutely nothing wrong with n***a and there never has been.
Like it hasn't been used in to dehumanize us in the past.

ahhhhh there is your problem... you are stuck in the past... the word has so
much power over you because of how it was used in the past, you still cant
get over it...

wouldnt that be your problem???

or are you saying that people who use it as a term of endearment and see
nothing wrong with it because the script has been flipped on it shouldnt
do so because they have a problem???

I'm saying people shouldn't be so quick to forgive. Are you one of
those people who also believe slavery has nothing to do with present
day life? Do you also believe it should be glossed over when American
history is taught because it has little relevance aside from being a
blight in America's past? Sorry, I'm not as quick to forgive a nation
that enslaved a race of people only 200 years ago. That's a short time
in the history of nations. So, if that's living in the past then so be
it. I just think black people have become far to accepting of the
pittance that's been thrown at them. And we disguise it as flipping
the script. What's next? Will we flip the script and make crack
dealing positive? I don't care if it's words or guns, n***a has no
redeeming value. Are white folk shaking in their shoes because Raheem
and Ray Ray are going around referring to each other as n***as? Are
members of the KKK and Aryan Nation sitting back thinking what are we
going to do now? Nah, not at all. Too many of us think we're doing
something when really, we're doing nothing.



Plus you are limiting the childrens usage of the English language.

I seriously doubt not saying n***a is limiting use of their language.

*** is a word in a language... to stop them from using it because she
doesnt like it is censorship...

you know what, censorship is fine for children. Sorry, that's how we
were raised. Saying we have rights was like saying "f*** you." You
have no rights until you're a legal adult.


My 6 year old has an excellent vocabulary and she's never used it in
daddy or mommy's presence. never cursed in our presence either.

your 6 year old like my 3 year old lives in a sheltered environment...
my three year old will eventually know it is used a term of endearment
because we dont tend to deal with only stuck up black folk...

your child on the other hand, i cant quite call it...

she'll go around denouncing it's usage and trying to run a movement for
equality amongst our people.


Does
she do it at school? I pray not because we've taught her better but I
know how peer pressure can be. But she's never used it in class
either. That's not limiting language. Use of slang and some
colloquialisms isn't limiting language.

do you not remember elementary school... lol... i think kids curse more
in elementary school than at any other time in their lives... thats because
the *** is new to them and they want to feel grown... i heard more cussing
from kids during the time i was in the third to sixth grade than any other
time i was in school...

I heard the most cursing in 7th through 9th grade. Elementary school
kids didn't currse that much where I was.


but then again i went to school in south central los angeles... maybe kids
everywhere else are different... maybe only kids in south central los angeles
want to be like grown ups...

no, but I can say that my hood probably wasn't like yours. Although,
now it maybe.



If your mother lets you cuss her out and cuss at your teachers as you
wish.....well, all I can say is that I guess it explain a lot about
you then.

Ooooh an attempt at a personal insult because I'm not uptight about the use
of the English language...

Ach, you're still missing the point.

i dont think so, i think he is right on the money... i also think you are missing
the point because you dont think the word *** should be used as a term
of endearment...

i think thats the whole problem with you on this issue...

c'est la vie.



What a load of contridictory bollocks...

Not only are you again giving words more power than they deserve
but you're also on some power trip because you're an adult and
they're 'just' kids.


Having discipline and showing respect is not "power tripping".

This is not respect you are talking about. Respect does not involve
restricting your speech to please those around you in order not to
get a beating or detention. That's fear, just in the same way if I
was in Guantanamo Bay I'd say Dubya was the greatest man ever to
walk the Earth, not because I respect the people asking me
questions, not because I have an ounce of respect for Dubya but
purely because of fear.


Fear is not my motivation for not cussing in front of my parents. I'm
an adult now and I still don't. I really have nothing to fear
anymore. I don't do it out of respect.

Again it's not respect... It's the legacy of fear...

Crap. if you define that as fear, how do you define respect.

doing something because you feel it is right, not because you feel you
will be punished if you dont do what people want you to do???

and somehow, you're thinking that not using the n word is done out of
fear? not out of what's morally correct???



I may
use cuss words w/ my close friends and certain members of my family
(husband/brothers/cousins...generally, those who I consider my
peers) but I most certainly wouldn't cuss in front of my boss, my
children or my own father. That has nothing to do w/ them "power
tripping" over me. It's about me showing them the level of respect
that they are due.

Again, that's not respect. That's fear of what the consequences
would be, the reality probably is that they wouldn't give a *** but
you fear that your boss would sack you, your kids would look down on
you and that your father (in the past) would beat you and not talk
to you.


See above.


First, I didn't say that they weren't allowed to like it. I said
that I don't let them sing it in school. And no, it's not simply
because "I said so".

Yes it is. You're trying to dictate which songs they like.

No, I'm dictacting what is done ***in school***. They can like
whatever songs they want to on their own time at home with their
parents.

So they're not allowed to cross their personal life with school life...
Right, so where does this lack of using personal experience stop?

There is a time and place for everything. I rarely mix my personal
life with what I do at work. There's no need. Why do the poeple at
school, at your job need to know all about you? They don't. Not only
such, there are some things that are just not appropriate for children.
It's bad enough that over the past century we've convinced our
children that they need to be adults as quick as possible without
teaching them what it means to have adult responsibilities. Sean Paul
doesn't make music for 10 and 11 year olds. He makes music for
mid-20s, early 30s (his age). It's just that we let corporations
market the music 10 throuhg 16 year olds, and unfortunately, some of
our 26 year olds are actually 16 year olds. Li'l Jon doesn't make
music kids. So, why do kids know his music? Kids who have no idea of
what "Get Low" is about go around singing the song. And somehow,
you're telling me that's okay. There's a growth process in children
and too many times they go from being kids to adults without
experiencing adolescence. This is why it pains me everytime I hear
about some 14 or 15 year old shooting someone, anyone. They're still
children and they think it's okay to take lives. Ach, I'm on a soapbox
now. Ahh well. You're probably asking how is this at all related to
n***a. Well, discipline, self-discipline has to start somewhere. Some
kids don't get in the home, so teachers wind up having to try to teach
it. They get it from other sources (or not).

yeah youre all over the place and havent come close to explaining why
you want to censor slang...

give me another day, I'll clear it up.



They aren't going
to randomly sing songs they don't like but YOU find the content of
the songs they do like to be 'inappropriate' for them therefore they
can't sing them.


They can't sing it ***in school***. They can do whatever they want to
once they leave to go home w/ their parents.

Why can't they sing it in school?

If it's one of their favourite songs, they are singing it on their own time
(i.e. not randomly in the middle of classes) then who cares? No harm will
come from them singing one song.

One of the issues with living in a scoiety is that you have to be part
of the social structure. If that social structure puts you in
proximity with younger peers than, whether you like it or not, you
become an example to the younger peers. Not the adults, you do. The
next age group higher. So, whatever they see you do, they're going to
want to emulate because they want to be like the older kids. This is a
difficult lesson to teach children (who are naturally self-absorbed).
I know, I'm going through it with a six year old.

its the parents job to make sure their kids follow them and not other
children... parents need to figure out how to subvert the "cool factor"...
parents can be seemed as cool as kids if they arent uptight jackasses...

I don't want my kids to think I'm cool. i want them to know I'm daddy.
and there are certain lines you don't cross with dad. I'm not their
friend, I'm their parent. I have no desire to be their friend. my job
is to get them through life until their 18 and help them understand the
world's ways, get a basic education, and teach them morals.



It's because when you listen to the lyrics, the song is
truthfully not appropriate for young children.

So you are trying to 'protect their innocence'.


Not so much "their" innocence, because my students (being older)
already lost it. The school yard has all grades in it and the younger
kids tend to look up to the older ones and follow their lead. It
would be nice if the older ones try to set good examples.

Riiiight... Instill the hierarchy of authority based simply on age and one
which is purely for show when teachers are around...

do you have children?

i do... i dont know what that has to do with censorship of slang though,
which is what this is really all about...

if you want to stop people from using the slang word ***, why not
other words you dont like???

I think I explained it above.



Now, if they hear it
in the street or if their parents let them hear it at home, that's
their business....but while they are in school, it's not
appropriate.

Why is the schoolyard any different from anywhere else?


Because it's school property.

No ***...

It's the whole societal thing again. We don't live outside of society.
We are part of it. and contrary to what some may have us believe,
societal change does not come quickly or painlessly. Our society
dictates we follow certain rules and laws when we're in certai
settings. So, a school is a place of learning primarily, social skills
secondary. Like it or not, that's the way it is. When ti's time to be
socail, there's still a code of conduct and yes, it is subject to the
teacher's and adminstrator's discretion. Again, society and that's the
way it is. So, if mocha doesn't approve of them singing a song with
sexually suggestive lyrics, it doesn't matter if it's on their free
time, she's figure of authority and there's atrust that she knows what
she's talking about. If I go and murder someone on my lunch break, it
doesn't matter that I did it on MY free time, I'm still subject to
municpal laws and my employment structure. Sure, my job says I can't
threaten or harm anyone on job time. But you better believe if I'm a
killer or an abuser, than I will be fired even if it occurs when it's
not their time. Their's a mode of professionalism to maintain. And,
even though it's decreased with schools, it's kinda the same thing. If
I'm not saying anything correct, mocha, please correct me. I'm not a
teacher, jsut a parent.

youre wondering again...

you mean wandering...




Oh save it. "Innocence"...please. The school that I work in had 4
instances of oral sex, one pregnancy and one pregnancy scare this
past year. Thank god, none in my class.....but the mere fact that
these issues are now coming up in **elementary schools** is just
plain sad.

So stopping them singing about a guy wanting to *** is going to do
what???


It will help to create a safe environment for children of all ages to
play in.

So now singing songs creates an unsafe environment...

Studies have shown (and you can pick up literature by Gerbner and Sari
Thomas on this) that while media do not create certain problems
(murder, pregnancy,etc), those who are already exposed these issues are
not helped by media images. In other words, a teen who may already
have anger issues or sexual issues should not be listening to Death
Certificate, mid 90s Onyx, R. kelly, or things like that. To us with
ordinary, normal minds, we're don't think twice about it. To someone
with issues, it can become a trigger.

better make sure they keep the television off too, right???

yep. I'll finish this tomorrow.



You're trying to preserve this false notion of innocence by
restricting their choice in music and their means of expressing
their choice in music.

And this isn't a new phenomenon of teenage pregnancy... Again it's a
false idea of 'innocence' and past cases of cover-ups and 'shame'.


Teenaged? Try "tweener pregnancy". The girls in quiestion where 11
and 12 years old.

Not a new phenomenon... Nothing to do with Sean Paul, Hip Hop or kids in a
schoolyard calling themselves '***', 'dude', 'bro', 'homie'...

You really can't separate them though. It's not the beginning of a
phenomenon, it's the continuation (some would say the result) of the
direction culture has been going for sometime. The thing is, alot of
people want to say it's really not a problem. Life imitates art which
imitates life.

so lets just blame hiphop, not tv, not magazines, not the people that live around
them... hiphop and the use of the word *** is the problem...

lol... come on, you gotta know this was settled in a court case in texas...
if bumpkin ass texans can figure it out, youve gotta be able to figure it
out too...

(the case where tupac was sued because some kid shot another kid,
it was tupac's fault because the kid listened to tupac and then shot
a kid)

i know you want to say see... but then you will have to stop people from
watching all television with violent or sexual themes as well right???

dont worry though, big brother is almost here to do just what people
who took pac to trial on that bull*** want...



Sean Paul isn't responsible for this....but I think blind denial, a
lack of parental guidance and a lax attitude toward obvious
inappropriate behavior contributed to it.

and stopping kids singing songs ain't going to make a blind bit of
difference.


Probably not. But at least it will keep the playground *** A
PLAYGROUND***.

So singing songs doesn't constitute playing... OK...

again, do you have children?

strawman... (part 2)

doesnt matter if you have children or not... do i have to stick my hand
in the fire to know that it is hot???

fake apology or not.....they knew enough to say it and knew enough
to know take it elsewhere because it doesn't belong in my class.
That's good enough for me for right now.

So all they learnt was that they can't be themselves around you,
have to limit their speech and not show appreciation for music
because you might be uptight about it's content.

Way to go teach... That's some mighty fine 'respect' they'll have
for you...


Yes, I think it is. They learned how to speak properly and how to
conduct themselves with dignity. Maybe one of them will get to be on
the Apprentice someday and will already know that it's inappropriate
to say "What's Up?" when initially greeting a potential client.

How is it respect when they have to limit what they can or can't say for
fear of any action against them?

see first argument.


It's not respect in the slightest and having any fun they may have as kids
beaten out of them by restricting them may help they on a bull*** reality
TV show, then again in the real world it might just make them into
suckers...

children can have fun without cursing, screwing, or killing. really,
they can. Teenages may want to curse and screw, but 10 and 11 year
olds should have some restraint.

lol...


...that's exactly what I advised him to do as well. You're advice
isn't any different from mine. Rather than "don't make a fuss or a
big deal", you said "have a word w/ them casually".

There's a big difference. I'm talking about it appearing as being a
totally random conversation - no "I'm an adult, you're a child"
crap, no repercussions and no fear of any repercussions.

The whole tone of everything you've said is that you'd pull them to
one side, tell them it was inappropriate and not allow any future
usage which is entirely different from just saying "Do you know some
people get offended by that word?" and sparking a conversation not
pulling anyone aside and potentially making it a group discussion
where Tim would have the chance to explain (without preaching) why
some people don't like it, should the kids need it - which I'm
guessing they probably don't, and all views on it are aired. If they
choose to use it then that's the choice they have.


Free choice EXCEPT for when they are in school. In school, they need
to learn to follow the rules.

Sounds like Boot Camp to me...

did you go to school? It is boot camp. Children have no rights in
school. again, the society thing.

children have no rights in school??? so if there teacher feels the urge to
moleste them its okay??? if they dont want to play sports they have too???

i know its ridiculous, as ridiculous as saying children have no rights...
when children are out playing with other children they are in their own
world and in their world they want to be adults from the time they can
start communicating effectively...


I think the situation in Australia
might be the same as here where '***' isn't used as much as it
appears to be used in the States, therefore there is a larger
chance of people taking offence. If you do it in a friendly,
casual manner you won't lose their respect and they won't think
you're a herb.


..also basically what I said.

No you've said you don't allow it. Full stop. No questions asked.
End of subject.


No questions asked? Read my post again.

" I just take them aside for a minute and ask them a few
questions about the words and explain it to them. What the word(s)
actually means...why some people are offended by it, why it's not
appropriate for this (school) setting. etc."

Erm that line of questioning is one way... Probably including a flashlight
pointed in their face...

Nowhere have I suggest the kids stop using the word nor have I
suggested instilling any fear... erm I mean... respect into the kids
as a result of them using it. The above statement just says that in
Australia it may have a higher chance of people misinterpreting the
context in which the word is being used than in America, which in
order to stop unnecessary confrontation would need to be thought of,
if they don't mind being confronted by people who take words out of
context and get their knickers in a twist over them then fine let
the kids say what they want.


even if it's potentially to their detriment? I disagree.

People have died from having heartattacks while they've been running...
Maybe you should make them stop running in the school yard as well...

people have also died from heart attacks from high cholesterol. Oh,
but give them all the caffeine and potato chips and fried foods they
want. It's okay. Wouldn't want to restrict their choices now.

lol... you gotta be kidding... its called choice... you have the right to be
a fat ass if you want... you have the right to not get heart disease by eating
all of that bull***...

NO YOU WOULDNT WANT TO RESTRICT THEIR CHOICES...

because when you start restricting my choices that dont affect others,
then we are living your life, kinda like all the republikkkon religious right
nutjobs here in america who want to decide everything for everyone because
of their religion...

kind of stoooooooooopid, dont ya think???

they think its okay because of christianity, but they wouldnt think it was okay
if someone was forcing them to live a muslim lifestyle, would they???


That's about as much as you can do coz they'll still be saying it
regardless.

--
Wasteland Drifter
http://www.wasteland-drifter.co.uk
=============================================
"The most confused person in here, a pointless individual." - Kwaj
=============================================
Peace, Prosperity & Paper - http://peaceandpaper.blogspot.com
=============================================
Love Music : Hate Racism - www.lovemusichateracism.com
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