Re: the N word

purrffecttbliss wrote:
On Fri, 7 Jul 2006 18:54:35 +0100, "Wasteland Drifter"
<wasteland.drifter@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

purrffecttbliss wrote:

For the record, I think that it's rather sad that the word "***"
is the part of hip-hop and the part of african-american culture that
seems to be spreading. Out of everything, the most negative aspects
is what people around the world want to mimic.

Firstly, Hip-Hop didn't start it's use away from the negative
connotation.


No, but in the original post, Tim said that they were primarily using
it because they're into hip-hop and are hearing it in rap songs.

It's bigger than Hip Hop.

Secondly, how is it so bad that people of all races around the world
want to remove the power of a word by flipping it's daily meaning
from negative to positive, which in turn will not only reduce it's
usage in a negative sense but also reduce the offence caused by it
when said negatively. I can't speak for others but whenever I hear
'cracker' or 'honky', regardless of the context I find that ***
funny, why are you so intent on allowing me as a white person to
have at my disposal a word that would cause you so much
discomfort/hurt if I said it, apparently regardless of the context
in which I said it?

Thirdly, just how horrible is it to live in a world where you allow
words to affect you so much regardless of their context?


This is not about you or me. This is about the world in general. Just
because you don't personally take offense doesn't mean that there
aren't people who do.

People get upset about all types of *** doesn't mean we have to pander to
every little thing... For example, I'm guessing arachnophobia is the most
common phobia, now does that mean that everyone who doesn't suffer an
irrational fear of spiders has to go and kill every spider in existance just
to please those who are scared?

The word '***' is being used in a positive context in this example, ***
anybody who takes it out of context that's their problem. If the kids have
no problem with it's usage and use it amongst themselves then why the hell
should anyone tell them it's 'wrong' for them to say it?

I think you should at least be discouraging them from calling each
other that. If they seem to not really be aware of what they are
saying, maybe someone needs to make them aware. A huge fuss doesn't
have to be made. Just explain it to them if they don't know.

What if they do know?

What if they couldn't give a *** about the history of the word
because they're not using it in a racial context and using it just
like they would 'dude', 'homie', 'bro' because that's what it means
to them?


For the record, I don't allow my students to address me or each other
as "dude" or "homie" or "bro" in the school setting either. That's
street language and it needs to stay in the street.

Forget all this 'street language' nonsense, this is a question of authority
and an example of something which you can use to exert authority over the
kids because it's seen as the 'right' thing to do despite NOBODY doing it.

There is also the matter of learning to have respect for others.
Kids talking amongst themselves is one thing....but they do also
need to learn that they should be respectful when others around
them are within hearing range. Kids shouldn't be allowed to cuss
or use certain words around adults under any circumstances,
particularly in a school setting.

So it's ok for kids to 'cuss' when not in the presence of adults?


It's not ok....but I fully realize that some probably do.

Why is it not right for them to use the English language?

What a load of contridictory bollocks...

Not only are you again giving words more power than they deserve but
you're also on some power trip because you're an adult and they're
'just' kids.


Having discipline and showing respect is not "power tripping".

This is not respect you are talking about. Respect does not involve
restricting your speech to please those around you in order not to get a
beating or detention. That's fear, just in the same way if I was in
Guantanamo Bay I'd say Dubya was the greatest man ever to walk the Earth,
not because I respect the people asking me questions, not because I have an
ounce of respect for Dubya but purely because of fear.

I may
use cuss words w/ my close friends and certain members of my family
(husband/brothers/cousins...generally, those who I consider my peers)
but I most certainly wouldn't cuss in front of my boss, my children
or my own father. That has nothing to do w/ them "power tripping"
over me. It's about me showing them the level of respect that they
are due.

Again, that's not respect. That's fear of what the consequences would be,
the reality probably is that they wouldn't give a *** but you fear that
your boss would sack you, your kids would look down on you and that your
father (in the past) would beat you and not talk to you.

Personally, I would treat it like any other words that I'd prefer
kids don't use in school. I handle in the same manner I did when I
overheard some girls singing Sean Paul's "Give It Up To Me". It's
not a bad song....I actually like it. It's just not something that
I think 10 yr old boys and girls should be walking around singing
word for word.

Again a contridiction. You like it but they're not allowed to...
well they are... just so long as they don't sing it while you're
around because... well... erm... you said so.


First, I didn't say that they weren't allowed to like it. I said that
I don't let them sing it in school. And no, it's not simply because
"I said so".

Yes it is. You're trying to dictate which songs they like. They aren't going
to randomly sing songs they don't like but YOU find the content of the songs
they do like to be 'inappropriate' for them therefore they can't sing them.

It's because when you listen to the lyrics, the song is
truthfully not appropriate for young children.

So you are trying to 'protect their innocence'.

Now, if they hear it
in the street or if their parents let them hear it at home, that's
their business....but while they are in school, it's not appropriate.

Why is the schoolyard any different from anywhere else?

I just take them aside for a minute and ask them a few
questions about the words and explain it to them. What the word(s)
actually means...why some people are offended by it, why it's not
appropriate for this (school) setting. etc.

You obviously think the kids are stupid and don't know what the
words mean, therefore you explaining the lyrics to the kids is
surely doing more 'damage' than them just listening to it oblivious
to the meaning because regardless of you babbling at them they're
still gonna keep on listening to it except now they know Sean Paul's
talking about getting a stiffy and wanting to *** the woman the
song is aimed at... Well that's saved their 'innocence' hasn't it!


Oh save it. "Innocence"...please. The school that I work in had 4
instances of oral sex, one pregnancy and one pregnancy scare this past
year. Thank god, none in my class.....but the mere fact that these
issues are now coming up in **elementary schools** is just plain
sad.

So stopping them singing about a guy wanting to *** is going to do what???

You're trying to preserve this false notion of innocence by restricting
their choice in music and their means of expressing their choice in music.

And this isn't a new phenomenon of teenage pregnancy... Again it's a false
idea of 'innocence' and past cases of cover-ups and 'shame'.

Sean Paul isn't responsible for this....but I think blind denial, a
lack of parental guidance and a lax attitude toward obvious
inappropriate behavior contributed to it.

and stopping kids singing songs ain't going to make a blind bit of
difference.

After a while, they start checking themselves on their own(at least
around me and other adults who don't tolerate it) and automatically
apologize to me for letting it slip around me. I don't even have to
say anything anymore. There's actually two leesons being learned
this way. First, it's something that they shouldn't really be
saying in the first place. Second, they are learning when and
where it's tolerated and when and where it's most certainly
inappropriate.

The only lesson learnt is that they'd rather not have another boring
ear bashing from a teacher so they fake an apology and move to
somewhere you're not so they can sing along to their favourite songs.


fake apology or not.....they knew enough to say it and knew enough to
know take it elsewhere because it doesn't belong in my class. That's
good enough for me for right now.

So all they learnt was that they can't be themselves around you, have to
limit their speech and not show appreciation for music because you might be
uptight about it's content.

Way to go teach... That's some mighty fine 'respect' they'll have for you...

Imo, the fact that they know enough to instantly apologize for their
language around me without my having to even say anything means more
to me as far being respected as an adult and an authority figure
than just having them simply think "I'm cool" or "down".

What you're talking about isn't respect.

Tim, just have a word with them casually about how some people will
take the word out of context and get offended.

...that's exactly what I advised him to do as well. You're advice
isn't any different from mine. Rather than "don't make a fuss or a
big deal", you said "have a word w/ them casually".

There's a big difference. I'm talking about it appearing as being a totally
random conversation - no "I'm an adult, you're a child" crap, no
repercussions and no fear of any repercussions.

The whole tone of everything you've said is that you'd pull them to one
side, tell them it was inappropriate and not allow any future usage which is
entirely different from just saying "Do you know some people get offended by
that word?" and sparking a conversation not pulling anyone aside and
potentially making it a group discussion where Tim would have the chance to
explain (without preaching) why some people don't like it, should the kids
need it - which I'm guessing they probably don't, and all views on it are
aired. If they choose to use it then that's the choice they have.

I think the situation in Australia
might be the same as here where '***' isn't used as much as it
appears to be used in the States, therefore there is a larger chance
of people taking offence. If you do it in a friendly, casual manner
you won't lose their respect and they won't think you're a herb.


..also basically what I said.

No you've said you don't allow it. Full stop. No questions asked. End of
subject.

Nowhere have I suggest the kids stop using the word nor have I suggested
instilling any fear... erm I mean... respect into the kids as a result of
them using it. The above statement just says that in Australia it may have a
higher chance of people misinterpreting the context in which the word is
being used than in America, which in order to stop unnecessary confrontation
would need to be thought of, if they don't mind being confronted by people
who take words out of context and get their knickers in a twist over them
then fine let the kids say what they want.

That's about as much as you can do coz they'll still be saying it
regardless.

--
Wasteland Drifter
http://www.wasteland-drifter.co.uk
=============================================
"The most confused person in here, a pointless individual." - Kwaj
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Peace, Prosperity & Paper - http://peaceandpaper.blogspot.com
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Love Music : Hate Racism - www.lovemusichateracism.com
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