Re: Robert McNamara

On 2009-07-10 10:08:18 -0400, Neil X <neilxk@xxxxxxxxx> said:

Sherry asked:

Huh. So you prefer to play guessing games rather than know someone is
honest and won't lie to you?


If you're good at the game, it's not really a guessing game.
Civilized society is about telling a thousand little lies every day.
in my opinion, that's not optional, and it's not a bad thing. I
wouldn't change it if I could.


It's definitely far less important to me than it apparently is to
you.  Here's some honesty that I wouldn't usually share with someone
I
like:  I find your perspective here to be appalling.  Your lack of
judgment about the appropriateness of the kind of honesty you propose
bespeaks a lack of perspicacity that makes me doubt your
intelligence.  Actually, that's far from the only thing that has made
me doubt your intelligence.

Umm - you lost me here, Neil. What do you mean "my lack of perspective?"


Your lack of understanding that the type of honesty you propose is
inappropriate. Also, you lack the perspective that honesty is more
than not saying things that are untrue, a lie can be a lie of omission
as well as a lie of commission. You apparently are comfortable with
the former but not with the latter. Which actually gives lie to your
thesis that you are always honest.

So honesty, to you, is spilling every last thought in your brain so as not to omit anything? I don't get that - if no one ever asks, how is it a lie? Not to mention that I think I have thousands more thoughts than those that actually make it into words... I assume it works that way for most people? I don't lie to myself - it seems pointless. I am harder on myself than other people are. I was lied to continually in my childhood - my mother believes little white lies are necessary, but in my experience, all they did was muddy the waters and screw things up further. Telling folks "what they want to hear" - or more accurately, "what you *think* they want to hear" makes things worse - especially if you are trying to really gain understanding of the issue/person/whatever. It sure never made ME feel better to be lied to by those who felt they were "protecting" me... only sucker-punched when the truth eventually came out. I choose not to do that. If I say it, it's my honest thought or opinion. If I ask someone something, I expect their honest answer, because that is what I expect of myself. Why is that so bothersome to you?

I live by these words: The truth can hurt. Lies destroy. And that sums up how I feel about it. I'd rather be hurt by truth than devestated by lies.

What is inappropriate about being honest with everyone? As I said, you
don't HAVE to speak every thought that crosses your mind. What's that
Bambi quote? Something like if you don't have something nice to say,
don't say anything at all... I don't exactly agree 100% with that -
there are times when speaking your mind is necessary, and not
necessarily nice, often when standing up for others who can't or won't
stand up for themselves.


See above comment on "Lies of omission."


Everyone jumps on the bandwagon to "fit in"
and I won't do that - sometimes to my own detriment


That's a non sequitur to what we are talking about here.

How so? Folks seem think little white lies are the way to go - "everyone" does it, right?


Why would being honest lead to less understanding? I think it would
lead to MORE clarity and understanding.


If the only goal of civilization were more clarity and understanding,
that's fine. But society requires more than understanding, it
requires compromise, camaraderie, trust and loyalty. I would never
hire, or work for, someone who espoused the degree of baldfaced
honesty that you propose. I simply could never trust, or give my
loyalty, to someone who was so recklessly honest.

How am I recklessly honest? I have no issues with compromise, camraderie, trust or loyalty - in fact, I see that honesty is important to every one of those. I don't care for "yes men" which is what it seems to me you are saying - better to kiss ass and tell white lies and pretend everything is just great than tell the truth?

Seems to me our society could use a WHOLE lot more clarity and understanding - maybe the government would not be such a mess if telling the truth had more value in society.

If what you wrote is truly what you think, then obviously you don't
think much of me.

No, that's not true. I like you a lot and have a ton of respect for
who you are and what you have done with your life. It's a beautiful
thing, what you have made for yourself. It took courage,
perseverence, and vision to accomplish.

I could generate a similar list of the faults and shortcomings that I
perceive in every single individual that I interact with. And I am
certain that every individual that I interact with could generate a
similar list about me. That's exactly the point. Civilized society
requires that we lie about these things constantly--lies of omission,
AND lies of commission. I think you do understand that, but have
managed to fool yourself into thinking that you are somehow still
"completely" honest despite this. No one wants to be around somone as
honest as you claim to be.

Well - my friends might disagree with you there! Some, in fact, will ask me stuff BECAUSE no one else will give them an honest answer. If you ask me something, I will answer honestly to the best of my ability. Of course I am not always right, but playing head games is not something I do.

But this discussion is really confusing me now... I value honesty and THRU that, find the ability to trust folks. Being lied to sucks, IMO. How can you HAVE trust or loyalty if you know the person is going to lie to you?

I fail to see how NOT telling someone something that *they did not ask* is a lie of ommission. If you ASK me something, I will answer it. Honesty is not just spilling every thought you've ever had! And if folks did not tell me what my shortcomings are, how would I know them?

Sherry in Vermont

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