Re: Conservative Deadheads? Veteran Deadheads? NRA Member/Hunting Deadheads?


"Darren E. Mason" <stcalvin@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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"Richard Morris" <jrmorris@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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"Darren E. Mason" <stcalvin@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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"Richard Morris" <jrmorris@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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Do you want a society in which everyone contributes *in proportion to
their ability to do so*, that does not put up barriers for certain
people and classes of people, and that helps people who are genuinely
down on their luck,
-or-
Do you want a society that protects the wealthy and assists them in
accruing greater wealth while the middle class carries the primary
burden?


This is a false choice.

The first option you provide is dangerously close to

"Each according to his means to each according to their needs."

Actually, you misquoted, but that is irrelevant because it is nowhere
close to what I said above.

Means, ability, in today's day and age, essentially the same thing. I can
give to charity
or be taxed by the govt, based on my means, which can then purchase the
labor of someone
with the ability that another person needs.

What bothers me more about your description of, what I assume you think is
a better
society, is such vague terms as "in proportion of their ability to do so",
"barriers", and
"down on their luck". Who decides such things? You? Me?

Of course ... through our elected representatives is one way. Another way
is simply making a personal commitment to conduct yourself in a fair and
equitable manner with other people. Sitting on an interview panel? Make
sure that you don't let your biases toward people of color prevent you from
seeing a good candidate. Renting an appartment to someone? Make sure that
you don't base your decision on age or appearance. Hiring a manager?
Consider a woman. And so forth and so on.

We already have a progressive tax structure. I would prefer a flat tax
rate on income,
be it from capital gains, interest, or income from labor, with a
reasonable deduction for
self, dependents, mortgage interest, and health expenditures. Those
that earn more,
pay more. Those that earn less, pay less. My guess is that your
"details" are not my
"details".

Yes, I am sure that you prefer a flat tax, since it favors the wealthy.
Let's use a 10 percent tax to make the math easy. Do you really think
that the $1,500 that someone who makes $15,000 per year would pay in
taxes is equivalent to the $30,000 per year that the person making
$300,000 per year would pay?

No. Actually, $30,000 is 20 times MORE than $1500. So the person with
more
"ability to pay" pays 20 times more dollars than the person with less
ability to pay.
That the tax is thet same % of their income does not bother me at all.
And my salary
is a hell of a lot closer to $15000 than $300000.

Or, more to the point, do you see a difference between $13,500 and
$270,000?

Apparently you do not see that $1,500 to someone who is making $15,000 per
year means a lot more to them than $30K does to someone making $300,000. Or
perhaps you don't care.

Sure. But you are comparing apples and oranges. Apparently the market
values the
labor of the person making $300000/year more than the person making
$15000/year.

Market value. You sound like the man who knows the price of everything and
the value of nothing.

But your answer is non-responsive. We were talking about tax rates, not
about why one person makes more than another. Gotta pay attention there,
Darren

For example, it doesn't bother me that I have friends that make 10x-20x
what I make a year.

Why should it bother you? Actually, you brought it up so I suspect that in
reality you are envious.

Good for them. They also have more people working for them and some of
them
employ a number of people.


I believe in equality of opportunity. Not equality of outcome.

No argument there ... which is why I very carefully addressed the issue
as making sure that no barriers exist to prevent anyone from experiencing
those opportunities. Do you think we have that situation now?

Yes. As good as it will ever get. There will always be trust fund babies
and your
Paris Hilton types. And folks who worked their way through college
without a dime
from Mom and Dad (me) and folks who have had educations or businesses
handed
to them by their relatives. No one ever said life is fair. And I don't
think it is the job
of the goverment to make "life fair". Initiative, effort, choices, and
luck all impact the
"outcome" that we see everyday on the streets.

You must live a very nice, sheltered, white life. Interesting that it is
you who wants to talk fair. You use the word, "fair". I am just talking
about making sure that the barriers are removed so that everyone has a level
playing field and can succeed or fail based upon effort and ability. I
don't think you like that idea, so you throw up this notion of "fairness" as
a smoke screen.

I want to talk equality of opportunity--making sure that there are no
barriers created that prevent all people from having opportunity to succeed.
All kids have access to good teachers and books. Adults have an opportunity
for employment that will allow them to support their families. Health care
is available to all. Folks can walk in to compete for a job knowing that
their gender or skin color will not be an issue. Folks can get credit or
insurance regardless of what part of town they live in. Wrokers have an
opportunity to organize and bargain collectively. And so forth.

See, the government is really just us.

The second option does not currently exist, especially when you consider
how much
income tax revenue is paid by the "wealthy" (top income quintile?)
versus how
much of the income tax is paid for by the "middle class" (middle income
quintile?).

I would suspect that the middle class is larger that the middle quintile
... probably more like the second, third and fourth quintiles combined.

Do you have any stats regarding income growth say for the top ten percent
over the last ten years? You might find them revealing. Here is some
information for the last 20 years:

http://www.cbpp.org/4-23-02sfp-pr.htm


Again, it doesn't bother me. The wealthy employ most everyone else.

Heh. Well, we want to make sure that

What is more important,
I believe, is that the upper 50% of wage earners in this country pay over
95% of the income taxes.
(federal stats - 2004).

That is fine ... they (we) can afford it. It is you that would like to
change that.

Seems that we have achieved the second of the above alternatives, does it
not?

Nope.

It is always interesting to me to see wage slaves adopt the line of their
masters.

Darren, no need for you to respond with the same old tired, conservative
tripe. I have heard it all before, over and over, and not even your
conservative heroes in politics believe it.


.

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