Re: What If...

Richard Morris wrote:
> "Carlisle" <carrie-cox@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> news:1135747606.758662.282960@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Richard Morris wrote:
>
> snip
>
> >> What exactly is it that you like about this guy? A character profile of
> >> Bush is easy to generate:
> >>
> >> Unsuccessful businessman.
> >> Convicted of a crime.
> >> Recovering alcoholic.
> >> Recovering drug user.
> >> Indifferent student.
> >> Inarticulate to the extreme.
> >> Lousy parent.
> >> Doesn't finish what he starts.
> >> Untruthful.
> >> Does not understand science and economics.
> >
> > Damn, you do loathe the man!!
>
> What? If I loathed him, I would say so. The above is a reasonably
> objective profile of George Bush *based upon his behavior or the behavior of
> those who are accountable to him*. I don't loathe him ... it is simply that
> he is a complete and utter disaster as leader of what used to be a wonderful
> and well-respected country.

You loathe him, babe. It's just like my father hitting the mute when
John Kerry would come on. You're closed for political business.

> > Yeah I know most do around here. Let me
> > try to give this a shot. What have I got to lose?
> >
> > Unsuccessful businessman--to the tune of netting 10 million in building
> > the Texas Rangers. Sure he had the family connections to give him the
> > leg up, but he did take advantage of his privilege.
>
> How many businesses did he bankrupt, Carrie? Was it two, or three?

Have you ever owned or tried to be an entrepreneur? It's a risk, many
go bankrupt in the process. It's not a sin. I guess it would have been
better for him to have worked in a safe secure government job his whole
adult existence.

> > Convicted of a crime-DUI? Those are pretty easy to get. I got one in
> > '88 after a few glasses of wine. Got it expunged from my record in '98
> > when I started substitute teaching.
>
> Been driving 40 years, don't have one. Most people don't. Don't you think
> it reflects on your judgment?

Congrats. I had one. I guess that makes me a criminal for life.

> > Recovering drug user- LOL. At least Bush has laid off the drug war
> > rhetoric and emphasized rehabilitation albeit faith based. The drug war
> > is a huge moral and economic fiasco, so I'm opposed to most republicans
> > (and democrats) on that one.
>
> The fact remains that he had a drug problem. Correct? Part of the picture
> of who he is.

What? that maybe he snorted coke at some point. No one even
corroborated this!
I think he took speed that was heavily in circulation at the time. My
grandmother was a huge speed freak.

> > Indifferent student--a Harvard MBA ain't that shabby.
>
> He didn't get in on merit, I am quite sure, and his grades were mediocre at
> best. Given his track record as a businessman, it is certainly questionable
> what he learned there. Any question in your mind about how he got into
> college?

He didn't get it on merit..another conspiracy theory.
<mock horror>

> > Inarticulate to the extreme--He is no Ronald Reagan, but the man gets
> > his point across.
>
> You are extremely gracious. "It's hard ... it's just hord." Jeesus.

I am extememly gracious.

> > Lousy parent- <???> Isn't that just a bit unfair? Sure his daughters
> > should have to serve in the armed forces in some capacity. I've always
> > said that.
>
> No. Evidently his daughters didn't respect him enough to stay out of
> trouble and not embarass him in the highest office in the land. That is
> what my grannie used to call, "home training". Apparently the daughters
> didn't get enough.

Oh c'mon!! I had lousy parents then, no doubt!

> > Doesn't finish what he starts- So you are saying he's NOT stubborn
> > enough? A president can only do so much.
>
> No, I am saying that he did not finish his National Guard obligation.

Isn't the whole National Guard smear thing what got Dan Rather his
final *walking papers*? Be careful with that one.

> > Untruthful- the jury is still out. Sure there is a fine line between
> > untruth and seeing what one wants to see.
>
> There sure is ... and what you just said applies more to you than it does to
> me. How do you like the fact that his administration illegally pays for
> propoganda programs and calls it "news"? How do you feel about the fact
> that they had a shill in the White House press corps? Is this
> representative of honesty and decency?

Didn't you know that every Administration has a War Room to try and
capture the public opinion in political matters? Call it propaganda if
you will. Republicans play it too, maybe better.

> > Does not understand science and economics- He's dumb like a fox. Never
> > forget that.
>
> Ah, then you agree that he is deceitful. What is foxy about huge budget
> deficits? Tax breaks to the wealthy? Just what evidence do you have for
> his foxiness? Give me an example, please? What you are saying is that he
> is really smart, but he just hides it for some purpose. Give me an example
> on some issue.

I agree that he is slick. Just like another president I truly admired.
He is smart not to bow to the UN on every issue just because it's an
*international body* since the UN has proven to be corrupt and
oftentimes antithical to American interests. He was smart to restart
development of SDI and even got Putin to aquiese. It was smart to
attempt to increase domestic energy production. He was smart to
encourage saving, investing and economic growth through cap gains tax
cuts (that Clinton also signed) and rate reduction. And he was smart to
overthrow the Taliban.

> > I agreed with some of his goals in both areas.
>
> And what goals would those be?

Like I told you, what I said.

Although I've played Devil's Advocate, I must add (and no one will hear
this) that I have disagreed with the Bush Administration about half the
time and am fully prepared to vote Democratic next time if given a
pallatable choice.

> >People have always
> > underestimated GWB, just like they said that Reagan was an "amiable
> > dunce". Sometimes common sense principles are more important than how
> > many PhDs someone has or how glib they are.
>
> There is a difference between glibness and the ability to articulate an
> issue and communicate it. The difference being primarily that one has
> engaged in a process of thought, and drawn conclusions.
>
> Most of the time this guy just has to stand up and read a speech that
> someone else has written for him, and often he has trouble with that. I am
> concerned that it is a reflection of his thought process.
>
> >> What do you like about him? Some folks think he is just wonderful. I
> >> can't
> >> see it.
>
> What, no answer? He is bankrupting the country ... involved us in an attack
> on another nation ... violated the due process rights of both foreign
> nationals (how do you spell "torture" and "habeus corpus"?) and American
> citizens. What part of that do you like?

Yes, spending is out of control...bring back gridlock! Seriously.
We invaded said country with the backing and at least nominal support
of 32 other nations ostensibly to enforce UN mandates. I thought it was
folly. America always overreaches. We have troops all over the world
and it is a thankless job.
I don't have a lot of sympathy for al Qaeda operatives, I'll tell you.
But I do agree with John McCain and Lindsey Graham's bill to codify
treatment of any and all POWs. I disagree with Bush & Co. Executive
power must be limited at some point.

> >> He claims to love America and claims to be pious. Personally, I think he
> >> loves power and uses statements of piety to gain votes. What do you
> >> think?
> >
> > All politicians love power. But I think W. would be happy to leave
> > Washington tomorrow, go back to his ranch and business and never get
> > involved again.
>
> Why do you think that?

He has a life that he loves outside of poli-tics?

> > What do I see in him positive?? Ideas, common sense and sincerity. The
> > debates in '00 and '04 both brought home these notions for me. I saw
> > him once in person when I was doing my student teaching at Henry Clay
> > High School in Oct. 2000 and W. and Laura visited. After the assembly,
> > I got outta there and the back exit was blocked and I got out of my car
> > and stood there and saw why it was blocked, here came the motorcade. I
> > was the only one standing there and he rolled down the limo window,
> > waved and said, "Bye Now!"
> >
> > HTH,
> > Carrie
>
> Thanks ... appreciate your willingness to share your thoughts.
>
> You and I do not agree. I warn you that you are going to take some flak
> with respect to the above paragraph, because I predict that people will
> admonish you that the above are not solid reasons upon which to base one's
> selection of the leader of the most powerful nation in history.

Of course they might, or they may think, "To hell with it, she has a
right to her opinion misguided or not."

> Reminds me of when a friend or acquaintance would say, "oh, I am voting for
> so-and-so" ... and I would ask why, and they would say, "gee, I just think
> we need a change". I would grit my teeth.

Yeah, those are silly reasons to change leadership. We agree. Sorry
Richard, sometimes we will have to agree!!

> Anyway, I do understand better what your position is.
>
> Just remember, that for each of the inferences or conclusions that I have
> drawn about the man, I have based those inferences and conclusions on his
> behavior--on *what he does*. That, typically, is how we judge character, is
> it not? Frankly, I find that his is lacking with respect to the standards
> of the office that he holds, and that has nothing to do with loathing. Pity
> is probably a more accurate description of how I feel about him.

How could you pity someone who was that fortunate? Sounds like
animosity to me. And that's fine!! I respect part of your reasoning.
The personal invective (lousy parenting, etc) went too far, imho. But
the political opposition is completely justified and very American.

> > ps- I will never make another friend on this newsgroup ever again.
>
> I see two possibilities. Like with Reagan, you may never be called upon to
> doubt your faith and trust in Bush. On the other hand, I think you need to
> be open to the possibility that his administration has severely abused your
> faith and trust. If and when the time comes that you recognize that, and
> want to talk about it, feel free to let me know. In the meantime, let's
> agree not to talk politics. There would be no point in it.

So, I should only talk politics when I feel pissed or betrayed by Bush
& Co??
I will make certain to emphasize it.

> Ray, et al ... how do you talk someone out of gut feelings and faith-based
> opinions (and I am *not* referring to religious faith here)? Answer: you
> don't. You have to step back and wait for people to achieve experiences
> that cause them to examine their own feelings and opinions.

LOL. Did you ever think that my opinions are based in part on logic as
much as yours?!
Sure gut-feelings count. But I read, I learn, I form opinions based on
positions too.
I am *liberal* on many issues. So I am not the poster girl for the GOP.
Try and remember that.

> The awakening comes different ways for different people. Usually it has to
> be personal in some way. For some, the death of a loved one in a senseless
> war does it. For others, it is struggling financially while they watch
> people with money derive advantage after advantage. For others, it is
> seeing someone they know be denied due process. Or, it is sometimes a
> betrayal so overt in the part of the hero that no amount of denial can cover
> it. For others it is working in the school system and becoming aware of the
> "savage inequalities" that kids experience in a land that is squandering its
> resources overseas rather than using them for our own betterment here. Or
> it might be a developing awareness of the lack of social justice in the
> world.

I've personally known people affected by the Iraqi war, Richard.
I have family that are struggling financially.. I know it's tough for
many to adjust to a global economy. You think I live in a bubble?! Of
course you do. My grandfather (my favorite person in the 70's) was a
poor old drunk, he got nearly beat to death then taken to the hospital,
left alone where he fell out of bed and died of a head injury. If he
had been a rich man, he would have gotten better.
What do you think? I don't understand reality at all?
Lack of social justice in the world?! I never knew. <sarcasm>
We just have different ideas about how to best alleviate the pain and
promote progess.
It's called having a different approach. It's not evil vs. good or dumb
vs. smart...necessarily.

> I hope you achieve your awakening soon, Carrie, and when you do, I hope that
> it doesn't hurt too much.

Life is pain, it hurts everyday.
"It ain't easy kids, but nobody ever said it should be."- Bruce
Williams

> R.
Carrie

.