Re: Dylan's irony
- From: Dr_dudley <dudley@xxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 22:21:39 -0700 (PDT)
Dear Br'er Jumbo,
Thanks for taking the time to write, and for clarifying our confusion.
On May 16, 9:20 am, Brother Jumbo <ch...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On May 15, 11:22 pm, Jolene <rachb...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
So what is he saying exactly?
I've gathered there is confusion here in this thread, mine and other
I think it's because "ironic" is used in two ways in lit./art
criticism (leaving aside daily life for the moment, as I always try to
do). I came across both uses on the same page of a book I was reading
this morning. The book's called Reading the Early Modern Passions.
Good, if you like Academic falute.
On page 26 the literary scholar Richard Strier is talking about
Erasmus' "In Praise of Folly", saying it's an ironic text, because a
lot of the time YOU DON'T KNOW WHICH WAY TO TAKE IT.
Thus "irony" meaning 1: ... said to be in statements which can be
taken "either way", because of manner or matter. Matter: e.g. obvious
exaggeration ("I love your shoes, they're so you" - "love" here can be
taken either way: love/hate); manner: e.g. in a sonic work, a nasal
tone ("I waaaannnnnnchew", esp. repeated times 200).
Actually the acoustic parts of the Judas tour, and that particular
Bootleg Series edition, it's "wanCHOOO", and its delivery seems to ask
for a spitoon to be nearby.
On the same page, Strier talks about the "full irony" of Swift.
Here "irony" meaning 2, applies to "meaning the opposite of what you
seem to say". I.e. you *do* know which way to take it, though somebody
else might miss it.("I love your shoes, I mean, who with ego problems
wouldn't!"; here only an idiot would take "love" to mean "love")
Now, I think the latter meaning is actually what people here have been
calling "sarcasm". I.e. in sarcasm you know what people mean, even
though they say it using words with an opposite meaning.
In irony PROPER, you are never sure what they mean, it could be taken
one, two, or more ways.
As stated, this can be done via manner or matter, and this is the
ironic manner I think Paul Simon hears in Bob's singing, and which I
have said is in I Want You (though this example Brother Dud says has
Well, now i didn't say sieve-like; there are many vessels that can't
hold water properly, but that's off-topic.
But to say that "so baaad" is a giveaway. I'm not so sure, esp. when
it entered at least american vernacular, bad meaning good. And even
the use of a word to mean its opposite can be based on Sarcasm, i'm
I'm pretty sure it's been around awhile, but i don't know if was in
use mid60s tho' i suspect it was. Certainly i can't state what bob
meant in using it.
Anyway, it's turned cold here, how's it your end?
It's a bit chillier with persistent drizzle.
Lastly, to "bump": Bump: used in forums to bring a post to the top of
the forum list (a common backronym for "bring up my post"), by at
least one source.
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